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Comment by ahoya | Hacker News Reader

I have their latest starbook, just arrived a couple months ago and it is stellar. Covid delayed it almost a whole year, but in that time they upgraded frob adwertised 11th gen intel to 12th gen for free, quadrupling cores. It runs extremeley well with latest coreboot and everything. I considered canceling my pre-order because of the long delay, but Support was extremely quick and receptive and it turns out the trust they earned was warranted. I did a lot of research and really nothing comes close to these guys. This new one is expensive relatively, but the Starbook I have was a surprisingly good deal. No connection to them except a happy customer who can gladly recommend them.

Fully upgradable SSD and raM as well, I have 64 gigs and the touchpad is really really good.

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I just spec'd one out and it was pretty similar to the I9 MBP. Personally, I'd pay that price for a Linux laptop that's on par with a MBP.

Do we really think the build quality of these is even in the same state, much less the same ballpark, as a MBP?

Do we really still think Apple products are the gold standard in hardware?

OS agnostic here (I’ve worked professionally in all three major OSes and on both Apple and a variety of Windows machines, currently enjoying WSL2 on my Dell XPS 9700).

Apple’s laptop hardware still seems to be the gold standard to me. I have 10 year old laptops that still work great. My 2.5 year old Dell is currently with Dell for out of warranty repairs. I have no other windows machines left. All of them had an 4ish year lifespan are now dead and were not worth fixing. Current machine not withstanding; it’s too young to die.

Edit: I will add that I’m perfectly happy with my other windows machines, just that the build quality was such that I their natural lifespan was simply shorter.

> Apple’s laptop hardware still seems to be the gold standard to me. I have 10 year old laptops that still work great.

Last time I looked at second hand laptops. Most of those the +5y old macbooks in the market had huge issues / defects (and also looked like shit) while you could find a lot of decent refurbished thinkpads and HP elitebook from the same era with no advertized defects (and those I bought didn't have any). I am excluding battery life as regarldess of the brand all needed a brand new one.

So they seem to be the gold standard when new. But they certainly don't age so well.

Many would agree that the middle years between 2015-2020 were not gold standard. It’s laughable to suggest Apple didn’t win the title back with the advent of the M1.

In term of perf/watts ratio yes. In term or reliability the jury is still out.

How many 10 year old M1s are on the secondhand market?

Another sample, my MBP set itself on fire in the boot of my car (examination revealed, the thunderbolt or whatever chip ignited).

My XPS13 is going strong after years of abuse and being lugged around the world in hand luggage.

My old powerbook and ibook (remember those?!) Both had live current running through the case screws which caused a stingy shock on bare legs.

I've never seen an Apple laptop that didn't look nice but ultimately have weird issues

My dell XPS has been going strong for 5 years now, replaced the battery and upgraded the SSD in that time but it's been a pretty impressive machine and definitely on par with apple laptops I've had in the past

Genuinely curious what is better. MacBook Pros have been the gold standard for a while and now with the ARM chips they are pretty much unbeatable in my eyes.

Thinkpad for me is the gold standard because I can swap out the components and they have videos and guides of how to do so on their website. Their materials are sturdy and light.

MacBooks may use some nice materials, and their processors are interesting, but for a customer like me that prefers to install the hardware and software of my choice either today or in ten years, they have no products I'm interested in.

I've never had to sell or retire any machine I've had in the last twenty years, they're all somewhere doing something right now.

Personally, I tend to err on the side of hardware that can take a fall from waist-height and not set me back $600. To each their own though, I guess.

What kind of computer hardware meets that criteria? Toughbooks?

Thinkpads haven't failed me yet, even if it's a cliched response. The display isn't apt to breaking like a Macbook, and the chassis does a surprisingly good job reducing shock (even on later models). Toughbooks are probably a shoo-in with that logic, and I'd like to try one of HP's recent Elitebooks to see how they stack up.

My Macs usually stay at home if I have a more rugged machine to take with me, just for the peace of mind. It's probably a matter of personal distrust, but I'm a clumsy guy...

Thinkpad build quality is definitely on a slow decline. There's a lot more plastic casework in a new model than in a T440, say. They don't feel completely rigid in hand any more. And that's before the loss of a removable, upgradeable battery and the advent of soldered RAM.

A second hand T-series is still what I'd default to if I need a laptop for now (especially for the keyboard), but I'm aware that this is likely not going to forever remain the obvious choice it used to be.

Agreed, I'm waiting for the verdict to come back on Framework or some Linux OEMs before I upgrade my T460s. The product line isn't headed in a formidable direction, but I'm glad that there have been other manufacturers eying the space.

at least Thinkpad and Gram just from my own direct experience.

But in years past a mbp and an imac that never fell an inch killed themselves from the bad video chips, which Apple and their supposedly gold standard support refused to warranty and by the time they lost in court years later the damage was already done and cost various friends the price of new machines.

Other that those famous examples like that and the keyboards, just in general among all the machines I intersect with, the Apples don't fare any better. They all get busted screens, busted ports, busted hinges, exploded batteries. In fact HP and Apple seem to have to most cases of glued in batteries that expand and break the rest of the machine.

So far my Framework has met that criteria. It's taken a few tumbles.

Currently, especially with the addition of the ARM CPU, I think yes. I have a pretty new MBP (~1 year old) and it's great but my previous MBP had cooling problems - almost anything made it go lawn mower mode.

Apple people think that. They rarely leave their walled garden.

How is the sound quality? Is it comparable to a MacBook?

I'm really curious about people that actually use laptop speakers. Even the best laptop speakers I've heard (I've heard MacBook speakers too) sound terrible. Other than for a quick video or demo or whatever, who is seriously listening to videos or music on laptop speakers... And why??? Even a cheap pair of earbuds sounds better to me.

I find the MBP 14" and 16" speakers pretty serviceable for lightweight TV watching.

I have a 7.1.4 system at home and obviously there's no comparison but they sound good enough for most series I watch when I'm on the go - mostly on travels.

They're also very good for meetings. I find them much better than any enterprise equipment (Jabra etc) I've ever used.

Sure, good headphones will usually sound better, but I'd rather not have my ears covered all the time. To each their own, I guess.

Try good half-open cans like Beyerdynamic DT880, i can wear them for hours. I like the sound better than fully open Headphones, compared them to the DT990s. With my closed DT770 my ears get uncomfortably warm pretty fast.

I have all sorts of headphones. Open backs, half-open, closed backs, some of them are absolutely amazing.

I'd still mostly rather not wear anything most of the time. This is especially true those times when the laptop speakers prove the most useful - when I'm just chilling out, possibly in bed. I'd also rather not have to deal with wires during those times.

My main issue is not so much warmth but mostly the fact that my ears are covered, simple as that. I'm not neurotic about it but I prefer to have them open. Sometimes I'll take the sound quality hit and wear my bone conducing headset over wearing great sounding headphones.

I have a 2019 16" MBP and love the speakers. I regularly use them for music listening, Netflix and Youtube.

Just to pile on here, the 2019-2021 refresh Intel Macbook Pro 13 and 16 have laptop speakers that rival good portable bluetooth speakers complete with shockingly deep bass, clear midrange and defined treble. They are by far and away the best laptop speakers I've heard. Nice decently powered headphone jack as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNUz-cqkjVA

https://youtu.be/LGOmbNRlZdM?t=215

I use laptop speakers a few times a year, when I bring the device to my bedroom and just listen to a long interview with the screen turned off. Laying on the bed with headphones on my head is not something I would do. Earbuds I have not used in 15 years.

My partner has a Lenovo Yoga from like 2 generations ago and she's really happy with their sound. Its soundbar was one of the selling points. And it does indeed deliver

> Even a cheap pair of earbuds sounds better to me.

That doesn't work very well if there's more than one of you trying to watch...

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I'm seeing conflicting comments about the RAM. You say you're an owner and it has upgradable RAM, other commenters here are saying the RAM is soldered. Is only this new model soldered?

This new model is soldered unfortunately which allows it to use low power raM

how does touchpad compare to MBP one?

They are very good, multi finger gestures worked out of the box on fedora

this is what i want to know, the part you touch looks on point, what i want to know about is the software, there is so much secret sauce in a macbooks giant glass touchpad that actually makes it a reasonable replacement for a mouse

didn't feel that about any touchpad before the macbook, and it's why we loved thinkpad's so much because at least they gave you a nub

my thoughts exactly. before getting MBP about 10 years ago I couldn't even imagine not using mouse with laptop, but after a day or so with MBP and its touchpad it changed 180 degrees and now mouse feel unnatural (and requires way more movement of hands).

I would love to see Linux laptop that works like that.

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