No returns”
He must provide 2 years warranty selling to regular consumers. That’s how the big players killed hardware startups in Europe. That’s why every 20€ BOM gadget has a retail price of 99€.
I dunno, "2 year warranty kills our business model" sounds a lot like "we are selling gadgets to go directly to a landfill".
I imagine the bigger thing is on a macro level there's just less free money floating around in Europe to fund things with terrible unit economics. 2 years is of course a very long time, but you combine that with how many people would actually take advantage of that and... well, the defect rate, and I feel like you can make that work.
EDIT: And to be even more glib, if your thing costs 20 euros to make, make 1 for the "warranty stockpile" for every 1 that goes out to customers. Warranty claim? Send out from the warranty stockpile.
The problem is that virtually anonymous sellers and dropshippers on Alibaba and Amazon can and will undercut the pricing that is required to support that kind of infrastructure and development - and I'm not sure what the correct way is to prevent that, while still allowing start-ups and small shops to sell stuff in the EU.
Maybe an idea would be to make exemptions for small scale runs - think of something like a combination of:
- below 1000 units sold in total for a company over all its lineup
- at least the development work of the product must be domestic in origin (i.e. the company must be domiciled in the EU and at least 50% of the development work must be done by that company - that leaves startups free to hire overseas talent, but prohibits dropshipping China crap or production of pre-existing designs)
- handling warranty claims must be done in the EU, with a requirement of "repair first" to incentivize feedback into product development.
How is 2 years a very long time for an electronic device? Most larger electronics (washing machines, dishwashers, fridges,...) have a 5 year warranty by default here, also many cars do.
EU law defines that the consumer is given a minimum 2-year guarantee as a protection against faulty goods, or goods that don't look or work as advertised when buying a product from a trader in the EU (incl. Norway and Iceland).
The application of this is a bit more complex, as the definition of a "faulty good" is a product that failed due to flaw in its design ("defects presumed to have existed at the time of delivery"), and after the first year YOU as the consumer have to prove that this fault existed when the goods were delivered.
Moreover, legally this guarantee has to be given by the *trader* selling the product to you, not even the manufacturer of the prouct. If you import the component from outside the EU the law doesn't even apply, as you have formed a contract with a trader not bound by this law.
But in this case it's all irrelevant because the item sold is basically a spare-part, not a consumer end-product. For spare-parts and components that legal guarantee for consumers doesn't apply.
You have to make it probable, which is very different from proving. A rule favoring consumers, something like "there isn't an excess of scratches" is sufficient in most cases, where the alternative would require an excessive cost in further analysis (read: all electronics).
> If you import the component from outside the EU the law doesn't even apply, as you have formed a contract with a trader not bound by this law.
The seller is advertising _and_ shipping his product to the EU, therefor he is bound by its laws. He even features specific advise to EU consumers.
> But in this case it's all irrelevant because the item sold is basically a spare-part
This is just nonsense. It's sold direct to consumers, it's a consumer product.
The seller is advertising _and_ shipping his product to the EU, therefor he is bound by its laws. He even features specific advise to EU consumers.
This is interesting, and I think is similar to the GDPR. Do you think he could get extradited for not following EU law, assuming he is being compliant with the laws of his own country?
I would think that any punishment would be limited to if he enters the EU, or has assets there. Or perhaps blocking his website, or any shipments from him. Is there anyone around with actual experience in these kinds of laws?
The EU can prosecute Americans to their hearts content. They are limited only by their ability to collect judgment. The US will not collect foreign judgements except as specified by treaty. There are no treaties for enforcing GDPR fines in the US.
So if you or your company has property in the EU they can sieze it. But if you never go to the EU or own anything there you can rest assured that you are quite safe from GDPR fines.
There is no such exception.
The big players fought this law tooth and nail because they didn't want to guarantee their devices for that long. They definitely did not want this and did not use this an opportunity to "kill hardware startups in Europe".
In fact Apple initially refused to offer the 2 year warranty[1]
[1] https://www.handelszeitung.ch/unternehmen/fauler-apfel-apple...
EDIT: Weird how this gets downvoted. Let me quote for example from Apple Germany's webpage [1]:
"The limited Apple warranty covers your iPhone for 1 year from the date of purchase against faults due to the design and manufacturing of the product [..] Depending on the problem you might be covered via AppleCare+"
> Die Garantie gilt zusätzlich zu den durch Verbraucherschutzgesetze gewährten Rechten.
"The warranty is in addition to your legal rights."
It's a bit sneaky: Apple makes it sound as if you're only covered by Apples warranty, but those are different things: Apple provides a separate warranty on top of your legal rights and it may cover slightly different things. You still retain all of your legal rights.
There's a catch with the 2 year warranty by law though: It only covers defects that were present in the device when it was purchased - either manufacturing or design. In the first 12 month, the default assumption is that the device was broken when purchased and the burden of proving otherwise is on the vendor. For month 12-24, the burden of proving that a device was defect at the time of purchase is on the buyer. In practice, this means that for most cases, even the legal warranty is limited to 12 month, because that proof is hard in most cases.
I don't think anyone in Germany would misunderstand. Warranty is known so well here, most electronics stores try to upsell you on a warranty extension provided by a third party insurance company.
I think in such cases the 'burden of proof' is fairly light. There is no easy way I could have caused the discoloring, except if the phone became wet (this was before iPhones were water resistant) and they could easily see this with the water indicator strip.
Yeah, I didn't miss that part. The fact that their warranty doesn't replace the legal consumer protection rights is not a concession in any way.
For the 2-year guarantee defined by EU-law (which you described very well) they brush you off to the trader who sold you the item as this is the liable party by law.
In case of other manufacturers, the trader (i.e. a mobile carrier) didn't accept such conditions and required the manufacturer to provide a warranty covering the full 2 years in order to sell his goods. So the 2 years of legal guarantee became 2 years of warranty. In case of Apple this extension didn't happen, instead a joint business of selling insurance for the second year was created.
So if your device-fault would be covered and you didn't buy insurance, the trader is double-incentivized to NOT support you in the second year (you should learn to have bought insurance AND he can't forward the claim to Apple).
A trader like a mobile carrier or Apple itself keeps pushing consumers back for years and only settles when a lawsuit is raised and actually moves to court (as they want to avoid a ruling, and the issue goes away with just ~1000EUR).
Source: I worked in that space when the EU extended from 1 to 2 years. And my Spouse works in a Consumer Protection Agency (particularly the iPhone 5c is a legend in those realms...)
Recently had to hand in AirPods Max for repair because they kept crashing, and they were covered under normal warranty.
Not sure what the UK law covers under this "consumer law". But that coverage-gap is huge, so I imagine it's particularly in the interest of Apple to define the route of action for the consumer, as they only provide 1 year of warranty as a manufacturer but the SELLER (!) has to provide 6 years of protection.
Side-note: I see the page repeatedly refers to footnote "2" for the seller, which I cannot find on the page. Would be interesting to know what they meant to say here...
Most retailers don't go to the trouble to explain to their customers that they are also liable for the faulty design or manufacture of the products they are selling for up to six years under simple contract law on their websites, at most they typically say something like 'this product is covered by a warranty and this warranty does not affect your statutory rights', you would then need to go away and research what these rights actually are.
They do provide it. In fact, they cannot by law NOT provide it.
What they don't provide is their special "Apple warranty" that covers more stuff than the standard legal guarantee against a falty good.
But you automatically get (and they comply, as they must) a standard EU guarantee if the product has production issues etc.
And only for "defects presumed to have existed at the time of delivery", for which the burden of proof is on the seller in Year1 and on the buyer in Year2.
Year1 is usually covered also by the manufacturer warranty, so the seller doesn't have to prove anything and just forwards the buyers' claim to the manufacturer as warranty-repair.
If Year2 is not covered by the manufacturer, the seller needs to cover the cost. If Apple is not the seller, this regularly opens a journey of pain for the consumer (especially if the seller was also in the business of selling insurance and the buyer didn't buy any --> "he's gotta learn to buy insurance for his iPhone")
The reason they’re fine is because this is a really niche audience who generally know what they’re doing. The few occasions things do go wrong, it’s almost always the fault of the person the bought it, and we accept that.
Those that do want something like this and who isn’t a hacker themselves would go via a 3rd party to mod it, usually paying them too (That scene is also massive in the EU).
The very few times I’ve had to return something has been simple enough. Full refund for an item that is either dead on arrival or they person just sent out the wrong item accidentally. Either way, we are talking same week rather than 2 years later.
I’ve not found a single forum where people lurk but rather independent message boards. I believe there’s a few Facebook Groups, possibly Redit too, but I don’t personally use Facebook nor Redit. You generally find them when looking to do something interesting on a specific device.
However if anyone knows of a more centralised place then I’d be interest to know too.
It's a myth that dominates the internet on some reason. There is no such EU-wide law, never was(although some individual member states do mandate that).
The EU law that does exist is that the seller is responsible for the item they sold, for electronics item the period of time is actually 6 years, but the seller must cover manufacturing defects. But here's the kicker - in case of a fault appearing within the first 6 months, it's presumed to be a manufacturing defect and the seller has to replace/repair the item, but any fault after 6 months you(the buyer) has to prove that the fault happened due to a manufacturing defect. If your laptop randomly dies after a year the seller is not under any legal obligation to fix it, unless you can prove it died because of a manufacturing problem.
So no, there is no 2 year warranty in EU the way many people expect the warranty to work. There isn't, and what is there is not the same as a warranty.
And when the consumer product guarantee was extended from 1 year to 2 years, the reversal of the burden of proof moved from 6 months to 1 year.
So for the first year the trader has to prove that the fault didn't exist at the time of delivery, which he fowards to the manufacturer who solves it by simply repairing the product based on the warranty he provides.
After the first year, the burden of proof moves to the buyer, now he has to prove to the trader that the fault already existed at purchase. If the manufacturer provides 2 years of warranty nothing changes compared to above, but if he doesn't you'll be left discussing with the trader (from experience: good luck!)
[1]: https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers...
Another link that also says the same thing: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua...
EU-law should have unified the first 2 years across the whole union in ~2011, with local law only applicable on top of it. Not sure what the overall coverage of that UK-law is though, it seems that the seller is not bound by it "if the (fault) has its origin in materials supplied by the consumer", which seems to give some wiggle-room in the sense of "you're holding it wrong" or "the paint hardly came off by itself"...
e.g. most people would expect a car or a sofa to last for 3 years with normal servicing per the manufacturer's guidelines, so you could claim against the vendor if something broke during normal, though you may not expect a plastic fork used every day to last as long. This can be overridden somewhat by the users manual / marketing materials - like if you sold something as 'temporary' or 'disposable'.
If you serviced your car using the wrong fluids or parts that do not meet standards (like cheap eBay spark plugs or reclaimed oil full of metal filings or something) then the vendor may be able to claim that the parts had caused the issue rather than them, if it were a reasonable claim to make.
If I were him, I'd be more worried about selling the pre-modified Pro. Especially if it's being shipped internationally, there's a fair chance Apple asks U.S. customs to seize these de-facto knockoffs. And calling it 41rP0d$ / M4g$4f3 isn't going to get past anyone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impression_Prods.,_Inc._v._Lex....
What's illegal about buying modified items?
That part is just alternative/imaginary history based on OPs ideological outlook.
That sounds like something the big players want you to believe because they're butthurt about being made to produce decent quality products instead of landfill.
And there's still a lot of landfill being sold in Europe; legally they're required to honor warranty requests, but in practice this shit is so cheap that the store front just gives people a replacement device or a refund (in store credit); the products get bundled up and either just discarded outright or returned to the supplier / importer, where I guess some money trades hands.
But there will be no attempts at repair, it's just not worth it.
They are in the free trade area so most EU regulations regarding goods apply there
> most EU regulations regarding goods apply there
In that point you're right.
Interestingly enough Switzerland is part of the Schengen area. So, as others pointed out, it's complicated.
Of course they are in Schengen and the free trade area so basically in the EU for the most part
That’s a large leap. It’s not in the EEA but is in the EFTA, so even fewer EU regulations apply than in Norway, for instance. Furthermore, the EU is a much larger political entity with its own parliament and other institutions, as I’m sure you’re aware, and these don’t have direct jurisdiction over most aspects of Swiss law as they would for EU member nations. It’s a more straightforward process for Switzerland to nullify its bilateral agreements (as is threatened seemingly every few years) than for something like Brexit.
Automatically, but many if not most commercial regulations get incorporated, in this case the warranty legislation also dictates 2 years
> than for something like Brexit I would say the difference lies more in the renegotiation than in the cutting. EU membership doesn't get renegotiated often, while treaties between EU/CH are expected to be renegotiated (although that has a whole host of challenges and doesn't happen nearly as often as you'd expect)
But nullification is a similar impact and a similar process as brexit because most of these negotiations had a guillotine clause which tied them toghether
Brexit was a remarkably straightforward process, you send a letter and at the latest two years later you're out if you don't ask for exception
It was the headless chicken phase when the UK was trying to negotiate without having an internal consensus on what they wanted that was convoluted
> Brexit was a remarkably straightforward process, you send a letter and at the latest two years later you're out if you don't ask for exception
Straightforward is a bit of a stretch.
Brexit was convoluted because the UK is in a weird position where it had a ton of agreements regarding its border with France which had not been negotiated for a long time as they didn't matter when they were part of the EU and they wanted things which were not compatible with the Good Friday agreement. As far as I know, this part is still not settled.
By the way, it was the border with Ireland that created issues, not the one with France
It was an admittedly "um actually"-adjacent comment, but I think still justified because Switzerland would have the exact same issues if they just renounced their treaties with the EU so they'd need to undergo as complex a negotiation as the UK had to
As a French, let me tell you there were and still are plenty of issues with France too notably regarding fishing rights and border control. France didn't threaten to turn off electricity to some of the Channel islands because everything was fine.
The UK could choose to leave and cut off all agreements concerning fishing rights, the tunnel, the border checks with france and it'd have been perfectly legal, if diplomatically damaging
With the Irish border there was/is the complication of the GFA, which prevented the same kind of approach
In practice they have few alternatives given their location as a land locked nation without the ability to feed their population without imports. All trade flows through or over territory of EU member states.
Tight CH-EU cooperation has been very beneficial for both sides and most of what we see is the usual political bickering.
That doesn't say anything about warranty, I am 95% sure that it generally works cross borders both ways, ie a lot of Swiss folks order form German amazon and don't worry about return policies. I bought ski touring set from Austrian eshop more than decade ago, found out the boots were slightly too large and exchanged them for smaller, all via post, no imports or other extra fees paid. The shop supported this all explicitly, but its just a bit more paperwork on their side so bigger ones are happy to get your money.
But if you (eg. a store owner) order it from him and resell it to end users, you're responsible for the goods sold.
If a 2 year warranty inflates your prices like that, you're doing something very wrong.
So a eg. broken screen is still a customers problem, unless they somehow manage to prove in court that the screens were shitty and break under what would be presumed "normal use". That's why there are basically no ads showing stuff like "survives falls from 10 meters high" here.
It's supposed to force a minimum level of designed longevity - you also get Chinese companies selling on Amazon using random-string company names. They seem to just spin up a new company and kill the liabilities; this continuing to make electronics that go very quickly to landfill.
You should know, but its hard to impossible to know for sure. Apple couldn't even predict antenna-gate, and Samsung couldn't predict their exploding phones.
Yes, you should know generally how its engineered and designed, but until someone is holding the device, you can't be certain, the same way that a white-board design of an API doesn't have bugs like the implemented one. Companies build the product, then subject it to tests to simulate wear and usage, but sometimes the tests don't accurately reflect how people actually use it (see antenna-gate) or similar issues.
These are exceptions and of course they couldn't be predicted because if they could they never would have shipped.
The problem isn't a once-in-a-product-line huge design failure, the problem is that there is currently a race to the bottom in consumer electronics.
When faced with a $25 coffee grinder and a $15 coffee grinder people choose the $15 coffee grinder. However the $15 coffee grinder is made using cheap plastic gearing that the engineers know will fail within a year or two of normal use.
This is not that complicated -- engineers aren't stupid and materials science is incredibly mature.
On the other hand, everyone I know from switzerland goes (usually) to germany to shop there, and our balkan "gastarbaiters" go home, and do "everything" here (dentist, haircuts,...).
This is common in border cities such as Basel, but seems relatively unusual in my experience for people living in Zurich, Bern, etc. It's often not worth the extra few hours of travel from these cities on top of potential customs formalities.
Most of our products are kits requiring soldering, and by far the most common cause of failure is user assembly errors. We offer great support trying to assist the customer in fixing any errors, but it is still the customer's fault if they really screw it up - which rarely happens.
All non-trivial parts are 100% tested in the factory, and we explicitly instruct the customer to verify they function before installation. Defects do still happen, but are not very common. We'll just send a replacement without any fuss, because we budgeted for that.
I do not believe long-term warranty requests have ever happened at our company.
Sorry but if your quality process doesn't allow you to guarantee that what you sell will still work in a measly two years, you have no business selling it the first place.
https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/WEEE-Anmeldung
e.g. there is a lottery for all electronics goods traders where if you get drawn you have to pay for a dumpster for recycling which can net you bills up to 10k€
AFAIK, sellers who are individual physical persons are not subject to consumer law regulations for distance selling.
That's more to do with economies of scale and how larger companies can absorb R&D costs.