AirPods Pro case converted from Lightning to USB-C with open-source PCB
engadget.com
engadget.com
No returns”
He must provide 2 years warranty selling to regular consumers. That’s how the big players killed hardware startups in Europe. That’s why every 20€ BOM gadget has a retail price of 99€.
If I were him, I'd be more worried about selling the pre-modified Pro. Especially if it's being shipped internationally, there's a fair chance Apple asks U.S. customs to seize these de-facto knockoffs. And calling it 41rP0d$ / M4g$4f3 isn't going to get past anyone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impression_Prods.,_Inc._v._Lex....
What's illegal about buying modified items?
That part is just alternative/imaginary history based on OPs ideological outlook.
If a 2 year warranty inflates your prices like that, you're doing something very wrong.
So a eg. broken screen is still a customers problem, unless they somehow manage to prove in court that the screens were shitty and break under what would be presumed "normal use". That's why there are basically no ads showing stuff like "survives falls from 10 meters high" here.
It's supposed to force a minimum level of designed longevity - you also get Chinese companies selling on Amazon using random-string company names. They seem to just spin up a new company and kill the liabilities; this continuing to make electronics that go very quickly to landfill.
You should know, but its hard to impossible to know for sure. Apple couldn't even predict antenna-gate, and Samsung couldn't predict their exploding phones.
Yes, you should know generally how its engineered and designed, but until someone is holding the device, you can't be certain, the same way that a white-board design of an API doesn't have bugs like the implemented one. Companies build the product, then subject it to tests to simulate wear and usage, but sometimes the tests don't accurately reflect how people actually use it (see antenna-gate) or similar issues.
These are exceptions and of course they couldn't be predicted because if they could they never would have shipped.
The problem isn't a once-in-a-product-line huge design failure, the problem is that there is currently a race to the bottom in consumer electronics.
When faced with a $25 coffee grinder and a $15 coffee grinder people choose the $15 coffee grinder. However the $15 coffee grinder is made using cheap plastic gearing that the engineers know will fail within a year or two of normal use.
This is not that complicated -- engineers aren't stupid and materials science is incredibly mature.
They are in the free trade area so most EU regulations regarding goods apply there
> most EU regulations regarding goods apply there
In that point you're right.
Interestingly enough Switzerland is part of the Schengen area. So, as others pointed out, it's complicated.
Of course they are in Schengen and the free trade area so basically in the EU for the most part
That’s a large leap. It’s not in the EEA but is in the EFTA, so even fewer EU regulations apply than in Norway, for instance. Furthermore, the EU is a much larger political entity with its own parliament and other institutions, as I’m sure you’re aware, and these don’t have direct jurisdiction over most aspects of Swiss law as they would for EU member nations. It’s a more straightforward process for Switzerland to nullify its bilateral agreements (as is threatened seemingly every few years) than for something like Brexit.
Automatically, but many if not most commercial regulations get incorporated, in this case the warranty legislation also dictates 2 years
> than for something like Brexit I would say the difference lies more in the renegotiation than in the cutting. EU membership doesn't get renegotiated often, while treaties between EU/CH are expected to be renegotiated (although that has a whole host of challenges and doesn't happen nearly as often as you'd expect)
But nullification is a similar impact and a similar process as brexit because most of these negotiations had a guillotine clause which tied them toghether
Brexit was a remarkably straightforward process, you send a letter and at the latest two years later you're out if you don't ask for exception
It was the headless chicken phase when the UK was trying to negotiate without having an internal consensus on what they wanted that was convoluted
> Brexit was a remarkably straightforward process, you send a letter and at the latest two years later you're out if you don't ask for exception
Straightforward is a bit of a stretch.
Brexit was convoluted because the UK is in a weird position where it had a ton of agreements regarding its border with France which had not been negotiated for a long time as they didn't matter when they were part of the EU and they wanted things which were not compatible with the Good Friday agreement. As far as I know, this part is still not settled.
By the way, it was the border with Ireland that created issues, not the one with France
It was an admittedly "um actually"-adjacent comment, but I think still justified because Switzerland would have the exact same issues if they just renounced their treaties with the EU so they'd need to undergo as complex a negotiation as the UK had to
As a French, let me tell you there were and still are plenty of issues with France too notably regarding fishing rights and border control. France didn't threaten to turn off electricity to some of the Channel islands because everything was fine.
The UK could choose to leave and cut off all agreements concerning fishing rights, the tunnel, the border checks with france and it'd have been perfectly legal, if diplomatically damaging
With the Irish border there was/is the complication of the GFA, which prevented the same kind of approach
In practice they have few alternatives given their location as a land locked nation without the ability to feed their population without imports. All trade flows through or over territory of EU member states.
Tight CH-EU cooperation has been very beneficial for both sides and most of what we see is the usual political bickering.
That doesn't say anything about warranty, I am 95% sure that it generally works cross borders both ways, ie a lot of Swiss folks order form German amazon and don't worry about return policies. I bought ski touring set from Austrian eshop more than decade ago, found out the boots were slightly too large and exchanged them for smaller, all via post, no imports or other extra fees paid. The shop supported this all explicitly, but its just a bit more paperwork on their side so bigger ones are happy to get your money.
But if you (eg. a store owner) order it from him and resell it to end users, you're responsible for the goods sold.
I dunno, "2 year warranty kills our business model" sounds a lot like "we are selling gadgets to go directly to a landfill".
I imagine the bigger thing is on a macro level there's just less free money floating around in Europe to fund things with terrible unit economics. 2 years is of course a very long time, but you combine that with how many people would actually take advantage of that and... well, the defect rate, and I feel like you can make that work.
EDIT: And to be even more glib, if your thing costs 20 euros to make, make 1 for the "warranty stockpile" for every 1 that goes out to customers. Warranty claim? Send out from the warranty stockpile.
The problem is that virtually anonymous sellers and dropshippers on Alibaba and Amazon can and will undercut the pricing that is required to support that kind of infrastructure and development - and I'm not sure what the correct way is to prevent that, while still allowing start-ups and small shops to sell stuff in the EU.
Maybe an idea would be to make exemptions for small scale runs - think of something like a combination of:
- below 1000 units sold in total for a company over all its lineup
- at least the development work of the product must be domestic in origin (i.e. the company must be domiciled in the EU and at least 50% of the development work must be done by that company - that leaves startups free to hire overseas talent, but prohibits dropshipping China crap or production of pre-existing designs)
- handling warranty claims must be done in the EU, with a requirement of "repair first" to incentivize feedback into product development.
How is 2 years a very long time for an electronic device? Most larger electronics (washing machines, dishwashers, fridges,...) have a 5 year warranty by default here, also many cars do.
On the other hand, everyone I know from switzerland goes (usually) to germany to shop there, and our balkan "gastarbaiters" go home, and do "everything" here (dentist, haircuts,...).
This is common in border cities such as Basel, but seems relatively unusual in my experience for people living in Zurich, Bern, etc. It's often not worth the extra few hours of travel from these cities on top of potential customs formalities.
Most of our products are kits requiring soldering, and by far the most common cause of failure is user assembly errors. We offer great support trying to assist the customer in fixing any errors, but it is still the customer's fault if they really screw it up - which rarely happens.
All non-trivial parts are 100% tested in the factory, and we explicitly instruct the customer to verify they function before installation. Defects do still happen, but are not very common. We'll just send a replacement without any fuss, because we budgeted for that.
I do not believe long-term warranty requests have ever happened at our company.
The big players fought this law tooth and nail because they didn't want to guarantee their devices for that long. They definitely did not want this and did not use this an opportunity to "kill hardware startups in Europe".
In fact Apple initially refused to offer the 2 year warranty[1]
[1] https://www.handelszeitung.ch/unternehmen/fauler-apfel-apple...
EDIT: Weird how this gets downvoted. Let me quote for example from Apple Germany's webpage [1]:
"The limited Apple warranty covers your iPhone for 1 year from the date of purchase against faults due to the design and manufacturing of the product [..] Depending on the problem you might be covered via AppleCare+"
> Die Garantie gilt zusätzlich zu den durch Verbraucherschutzgesetze gewährten Rechten.
"The warranty is in addition to your legal rights."
It's a bit sneaky: Apple makes it sound as if you're only covered by Apples warranty, but those are different things: Apple provides a separate warranty on top of your legal rights and it may cover slightly different things. You still retain all of your legal rights.
There's a catch with the 2 year warranty by law though: It only covers defects that were present in the device when it was purchased - either manufacturing or design. In the first 12 month, the default assumption is that the device was broken when purchased and the burden of proving otherwise is on the vendor. For month 12-24, the burden of proving that a device was defect at the time of purchase is on the buyer. In practice, this means that for most cases, even the legal warranty is limited to 12 month, because that proof is hard in most cases.
I don't think anyone in Germany would misunderstand. Warranty is known so well here, most electronics stores try to upsell you on a warranty extension provided by a third party insurance company.
I think in such cases the 'burden of proof' is fairly light. There is no easy way I could have caused the discoloring, except if the phone became wet (this was before iPhones were water resistant) and they could easily see this with the water indicator strip.
Yeah, I didn't miss that part. The fact that their warranty doesn't replace the legal consumer protection rights is not a concession in any way.
For the 2-year guarantee defined by EU-law (which you described very well) they brush you off to the trader who sold you the item as this is the liable party by law.
In case of other manufacturers, the trader (i.e. a mobile carrier) didn't accept such conditions and required the manufacturer to provide a warranty covering the full 2 years in order to sell his goods. So the 2 years of legal guarantee became 2 years of warranty. In case of Apple this extension didn't happen, instead a joint business of selling insurance for the second year was created.
So if your device-fault would be covered and you didn't buy insurance, the trader is double-incentivized to NOT support you in the second year (you should learn to have bought insurance AND he can't forward the claim to Apple).
A trader like a mobile carrier or Apple itself keeps pushing consumers back for years and only settles when a lawsuit is raised and actually moves to court (as they want to avoid a ruling, and the issue goes away with just ~1000EUR).
Source: I worked in that space when the EU extended from 1 to 2 years. And my Spouse works in a Consumer Protection Agency (particularly the iPhone 5c is a legend in those realms...)
Recently had to hand in AirPods Max for repair because they kept crashing, and they were covered under normal warranty.
Not sure what the UK law covers under this "consumer law". But that coverage-gap is huge, so I imagine it's particularly in the interest of Apple to define the route of action for the consumer, as they only provide 1 year of warranty as a manufacturer but the SELLER (!) has to provide 6 years of protection.
Side-note: I see the page repeatedly refers to footnote "2" for the seller, which I cannot find on the page. Would be interesting to know what they meant to say here...
Most retailers don't go to the trouble to explain to their customers that they are also liable for the faulty design or manufacture of the products they are selling for up to six years under simple contract law on their websites, at most they typically say something like 'this product is covered by a warranty and this warranty does not affect your statutory rights', you would then need to go away and research what these rights actually are.
They do provide it. In fact, they cannot by law NOT provide it.
What they don't provide is their special "Apple warranty" that covers more stuff than the standard legal guarantee against a falty good.
But you automatically get (and they comply, as they must) a standard EU guarantee if the product has production issues etc.
And only for "defects presumed to have existed at the time of delivery", for which the burden of proof is on the seller in Year1 and on the buyer in Year2.
Year1 is usually covered also by the manufacturer warranty, so the seller doesn't have to prove anything and just forwards the buyers' claim to the manufacturer as warranty-repair.
If Year2 is not covered by the manufacturer, the seller needs to cover the cost. If Apple is not the seller, this regularly opens a journey of pain for the consumer (especially if the seller was also in the business of selling insurance and the buyer didn't buy any --> "he's gotta learn to buy insurance for his iPhone")
The reason they’re fine is because this is a really niche audience who generally know what they’re doing. The few occasions things do go wrong, it’s almost always the fault of the person the bought it, and we accept that.
Those that do want something like this and who isn’t a hacker themselves would go via a 3rd party to mod it, usually paying them too (That scene is also massive in the EU).
The very few times I’ve had to return something has been simple enough. Full refund for an item that is either dead on arrival or they person just sent out the wrong item accidentally. Either way, we are talking same week rather than 2 years later.
I’ve not found a single forum where people lurk but rather independent message boards. I believe there’s a few Facebook Groups, possibly Redit too, but I don’t personally use Facebook nor Redit. You generally find them when looking to do something interesting on a specific device.
However if anyone knows of a more centralised place then I’d be interest to know too.
It's a myth that dominates the internet on some reason. There is no such EU-wide law, never was(although some individual member states do mandate that).
The EU law that does exist is that the seller is responsible for the item they sold, for electronics item the period of time is actually 6 years, but the seller must cover manufacturing defects. But here's the kicker - in case of a fault appearing within the first 6 months, it's presumed to be a manufacturing defect and the seller has to replace/repair the item, but any fault after 6 months you(the buyer) has to prove that the fault happened due to a manufacturing defect. If your laptop randomly dies after a year the seller is not under any legal obligation to fix it, unless you can prove it died because of a manufacturing problem.
So no, there is no 2 year warranty in EU the way many people expect the warranty to work. There isn't, and what is there is not the same as a warranty.
And when the consumer product guarantee was extended from 1 year to 2 years, the reversal of the burden of proof moved from 6 months to 1 year.
So for the first year the trader has to prove that the fault didn't exist at the time of delivery, which he fowards to the manufacturer who solves it by simply repairing the product based on the warranty he provides.
After the first year, the burden of proof moves to the buyer, now he has to prove to the trader that the fault already existed at purchase. If the manufacturer provides 2 years of warranty nothing changes compared to above, but if he doesn't you'll be left discussing with the trader (from experience: good luck!)
[1]: https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers...
Another link that also says the same thing: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/gua...
EU-law should have unified the first 2 years across the whole union in ~2011, with local law only applicable on top of it. Not sure what the overall coverage of that UK-law is though, it seems that the seller is not bound by it "if the (fault) has its origin in materials supplied by the consumer", which seems to give some wiggle-room in the sense of "you're holding it wrong" or "the paint hardly came off by itself"...
e.g. most people would expect a car or a sofa to last for 3 years with normal servicing per the manufacturer's guidelines, so you could claim against the vendor if something broke during normal, though you may not expect a plastic fork used every day to last as long. This can be overridden somewhat by the users manual / marketing materials - like if you sold something as 'temporary' or 'disposable'.
If you serviced your car using the wrong fluids or parts that do not meet standards (like cheap eBay spark plugs or reclaimed oil full of metal filings or something) then the vendor may be able to claim that the parts had caused the issue rather than them, if it were a reasonable claim to make.
EU law defines that the consumer is given a minimum 2-year guarantee as a protection against faulty goods, or goods that don't look or work as advertised when buying a product from a trader in the EU (incl. Norway and Iceland).
The application of this is a bit more complex, as the definition of a "faulty good" is a product that failed due to flaw in its design ("defects presumed to have existed at the time of delivery"), and after the first year YOU as the consumer have to prove that this fault existed when the goods were delivered.
Moreover, legally this guarantee has to be given by the *trader* selling the product to you, not even the manufacturer of the prouct. If you import the component from outside the EU the law doesn't even apply, as you have formed a contract with a trader not bound by this law.
But in this case it's all irrelevant because the item sold is basically a spare-part, not a consumer end-product. For spare-parts and components that legal guarantee for consumers doesn't apply.
You have to make it probable, which is very different from proving. A rule favoring consumers, something like "there isn't an excess of scratches" is sufficient in most cases, where the alternative would require an excessive cost in further analysis (read: all electronics).
> If you import the component from outside the EU the law doesn't even apply, as you have formed a contract with a trader not bound by this law.
The seller is advertising _and_ shipping his product to the EU, therefor he is bound by its laws. He even features specific advise to EU consumers.
> But in this case it's all irrelevant because the item sold is basically a spare-part
This is just nonsense. It's sold direct to consumers, it's a consumer product.
The seller is advertising _and_ shipping his product to the EU, therefor he is bound by its laws. He even features specific advise to EU consumers.
This is interesting, and I think is similar to the GDPR. Do you think he could get extradited for not following EU law, assuming he is being compliant with the laws of his own country?
I would think that any punishment would be limited to if he enters the EU, or has assets there. Or perhaps blocking his website, or any shipments from him. Is there anyone around with actual experience in these kinds of laws?
The EU can prosecute Americans to their hearts content. They are limited only by their ability to collect judgment. The US will not collect foreign judgements except as specified by treaty. There are no treaties for enforcing GDPR fines in the US.
So if you or your company has property in the EU they can sieze it. But if you never go to the EU or own anything there you can rest assured that you are quite safe from GDPR fines.
There is no such exception.
That sounds like something the big players want you to believe because they're butthurt about being made to produce decent quality products instead of landfill.
And there's still a lot of landfill being sold in Europe; legally they're required to honor warranty requests, but in practice this shit is so cheap that the store front just gives people a replacement device or a refund (in store credit); the products get bundled up and either just discarded outright or returned to the supplier / importer, where I guess some money trades hands.
But there will be no attempts at repair, it's just not worth it.
https://www.mikrocontroller.net/articles/WEEE-Anmeldung
e.g. there is a lottery for all electronics goods traders where if you get drawn you have to pay for a dumpster for recycling which can net you bills up to 10k€
Sorry but if your quality process doesn't allow you to guarantee that what you sell will still work in a measly two years, you have no business selling it the first place.
That's more to do with economies of scale and how larger companies can absorb R&D costs.
AFAIK, sellers who are individual physical persons are not subject to consumer law regulations for distance selling.
Please keep "MagSafe" (I believe the iPhone variant is now becoming the standard for Qi 2) on the phones and MacBooks. This is a propriety technology that is worth it (unless there is a future USB-C MagSafe standard?)
This seems like a really petty reason to not buy a phone in the grand scheme of things, but having everything on the one cable/standard (despite the internal protocol/capabilities of each device being all over the place) brings me a small amount of joy.
The two of them taped together are about 1cm^3. I've thought about attaching them to the cable I usually carry.
Anyway, I don’t think you need to worry on the phone front. Apple released their tech for everyone to use, so all phones will use the MagSafe charging.
I bought my first iPhone (13 mini) last year and you're 100% right to feel this way. Having one special cord for this one stupid device is awful. We should throw a worldwide celebration once Lightning is 6 feet under and we can all finally just use one damn cord for everything.
- it was badly needed when it was introduced, because the 30-pin connector was massive and came with a bunch of trade-offs around water ingress
- the prevailing standard at the time, micro-USB, was both a poor user experience (directional connector without enough to distinguish up from down) and had reliability issues (the clips on the connector would wear with time), two issues Lightning solved several years before USB-C was available on the market
But since Apple took a bunch of blow-back from users on changing from the 30-pin connector ecosystem, they promised that Lightning would last at least a decade (whether that choice helped or hurt electronic waste, I'm not sure). So even though USB-C has been at a good point for consumer adoption for 3-4 years, Apple has drug their feet. I think they'll be switching to USB-C with the next phone redesign, regardless of what the EU may regulate, just because it's "good enough" relative to Lightning (my only issue is that the device side of USB-C has a "tongue" that can break off, while that task is on the more-easily-replaceable cable side for Lightning).
I think USB-C did the right thing, putting the conductors on the expensive part and the spring contracts on the cheap part.
Instead they made an improved proprietary connector and the rest of the world made a different connector that's got most of the same advantages.
The broad thinking is the next device won't have a cable at all, which will be its own torture.
That isn't self-evident as true. Tesla opened the patents to their charging connector but I don't think anyone's used it, they're still using goofy CHAdeMO and CCS and whatever else.
Tesla, in 2012, wasn't an incumbent automaker with any sway over anything. Also, the original "openness" of the tesla patents is debatable.
Apple was core to the success of the original USB; they were the first to adopt it as the only accessory interface on their mass market computers 1998 imac. They've worked with other major players for the past several decades, making standards like firewire, thunderbolt, and USB. Apple was and is a major player in the standards bodies.
It’s not all cut and dry unfortunately.
Lightning cost more to manufacture (especially relative to micro-USB), which made it a non-starter for widespread adoption.
Tesla's charging connector is another example. At the time, there was no universal standard (even today the standards body is a mess, do we use CHAdeMo, CCS1, CCS2...??). People like to throw shade for a "proprietary connector" but at the time it was the best option.
If we get a new iPhone and AirPods with USB-C I will be upgrading. Until then other recent improvements haven’t seemed notable.
https://9to5mac.com/2023/02/10/iphone-15-usb-c-port-propriet...
They are, but MagSafe 3.0 connectors will not be compatible with earlier versions
Even their own product lineup is confused:
Mac: USB-C
iPad: USB-C
iPhone: lightning
AirPods: lightning
That said, my 12 pro is still going strong and I’m not feeling any particular desire to upgrade yet.
Apple is a premium luxury brand, like Bentley or Coach or Rolex. If you buy Apple stuff, you should be happy to buy different chargers and cables for the different Apple devices.
Why do people spread this false doctrine?
I mean "honour your father and mother" -what does the word honour mean?? bestow them with a title? give them a gold Oscar statue?
Also you said spread. I didn't see a jar of butter and a knife. what spread is this? You said doctrine. Can I see some statements from the episcopacy on this please...
"Don't buy user-hostile Apple equipment. Use Windows instead!"
What world are these people even from?
Rolex sells watches that are incredible pieces of engineering but functionally can be found in a watch that is 10000x cheaper.
There is no laptop that I can buy today that is equivalent to an M2 MacBook Pro at any price point let alone significantly cheaper.
Nobody buys the new iPhone because the SOC uses 20mAh less and is 13% faster and 300% faster in some irrelevant benchmark.
Camera quality, and bad battery life from old phone seem to be why normal people upgrade, brand and design occasionally too.
Nobody bullies someone into getting an iPhone lol because nobody calls or texts anymore they all use FB IG or snap so those group chat memes you heard of have not been a thing for over 5 years.
Huh? I'm talking about people switching to iPhone from Android (or staying with iPhone through an upgrade). The iPhone camera is nothing really special, and never has been: Android phones have always had the cutting-edge camera tech.
>Nobody bullies someone into getting an iPhone lol because nobody calls or texts anymore they all use FB IG or snap so those group chat memes you heard of have not been a thing for over 5 years.
That's not what I see when I see American users talk about using SMS messages and iMessage. SMS seems to still be very popular there, for some strange reason. Plus, it's not just the iMessage thing; it's people in real life seeing their friend with a non-iPhone and asking them "why don't you have an iPhone like everyone else?"
Always a good approach to have in life. Thinking everyone is dumb except for you.
But the Processor is SO far ahead of the competition its crazy. FaceID is still superior to the competition.
Then when I saw side-by-side comparisons of Pixel 7 Pro and 14 Pro Max, half the time I pick the 7 and the other half the 14.
What's interesting to me tho is how low the Huawei phone is compared to the Pixel, because when every there's arguments on Facebook about iPhone or something, there's countless comments about the Huawei being the best camera hands down, no competition. But it looks like it doesn't come close to top 3 in any category?
Ultimately the best camera is the one you have with you.
What's really weird are iPhone owners that begin conversations with "of course iPhone is objectively better", which I have met on HN a few times. They seem to live in a different reality, where it's justified to spit out couple hundred of dollars to not think for a five minutes.
Side A: Apple makes ludicrously expensive ultra-luxe products that only the conspicuously rich buy, like Rolex or Bentley.
Side B: Apple is definitely on the premium end of the market, but generally justify their presence there due to elements of product quality, and their price positioning isn't anything like Rolex or Bentley.
I think pointing out individual instances where products exist that beat Apple products in some respect and are cheaper doesn't really weigh in on the debate. In broad terms, Apple's high end phones are at or near price comparability with other high end phones, and at or near performance/specs/value with other high end phones. Maybe a smidge above or below in some respects at different times, but basically that's where they are.
To me, Apple is closer to Volvo, or maybe in a pinch BMW, in terms of their market positioning than it is to Bentley. That's not to say you can't prefer a Kia (better value / cheaper price) or a Genesis (premium brand spun off from a traditionally cheaper competitor) or a Lexus or an Audi (in the same price tier), but more or less it makes very little sense to pretend BMW and Bentley are the same thing.
Why are you comparing with an imaginary equivalent? Different things matter to different people - dimensions, weight, battery life, raw power, extendability, screen. There are a bunch of options that beat M2 Macs on all those bar battery life - e.g. my personal Asus ROG Zephyrus G14 is better for the things that matter to me than my work-issued M1 MBP and it's not even close - a screen that doesn't cause eyestrain within tens of minutes, choice in the OS, similar dimensions, much more raw power, extendability, repairability. The only thing in which it's worse is battery life. An LG Gram is lighter than an MBA/MBP, and goes to 17'' for the screen size.
Don't get me wrong, MBP hardware is pretty good. The problems are lack of choice (like screen type), highway robbery when buying extra RAM/storage, and a nearly total lack of repairability and fully total lack of extendability. Oh and a pretty subpar OS.
Now it's made to inconvenience the previous iphone users so they are given one more reason not to buy an android phone.
This way they waited it out and now the eu “is to blame”
I guess Apple are getting there...
If Apple had changed its connector in any way in the last decade, people would have similarly complained that they are changing in order to sell more chargers and cables. Neither one of these arguments is very compelling to me but seems to keep coming up.
What? Lighting is what Apple imposed (to themselves) when the world standardized on micro USB and Apple was still using dock connectors.
In 2019 Intel donated the spec royalty free to USB-IF
Of the 79 engineers who worked on the original spec, 18 of them were from Apple. Intel had 24, JAE had 21, TI had 12 https://www.docdroid.net/uf3z/typec-pdf
Then they were literally the first to go all in on USB-C in their laptops.
And the world (well, HN) loudly complained every single time.
Thunderbolt 3 spec was released to USB-IF in 2019 as a royalty-free standard.
Micro USB ports failed considerably faster and more often than lightning. Easily by a margin of 100:1. the design of the “cage” that held the male connector would wear out, the thin center plastic would break, etc. Micro USB was and still is complete garbage.
Apple engineers knew this and thankfully put in the effort to make something better.
The rest of the industry was still trying to pull their head out of their ass and apple had this awesome durable new connector. That’s what really happened.
Now, years later people like you have either forgotten or I guess maybe never saw the comparison up close for prolonged periods but it tires me to see this careless and ignorant argument brought up time and time again.
For some reason it never occurred to me that these connectors were so awful until very recently when I had one fail on a brand new micro controller. Unfortunately it’s still a super common connector in that space.
I've been using magnetic ones to prevent my ports from wearing out and if anyone preaches about safety or standards I don't care. It's what I'm forced to do, and now my data rates are slow but at least my port will work next time.
Since we are comparing personal anecdotes I never had a single USB port fail me in 20 years, be it mini, micro, usbc. But I don't treat my electronics like garbage, that usually helps a bit.
This was due to a particular material they were using that was more environmentally friendly, if I recall correctly. It wasn't just lightning cables, pretty much all of Apple's cables from that time were susceptible. It's not an issue with whatever they're currently using, though.
Regardless, the material of the rubber they're using the wrap the cable has absolutely nothing to do with the lightning connector.
It's difficult to buy lightning-compatible devices because Apple incentivizes knockoffs instead of authentic parts. Even if you wanted to buy from a reputable brand like Apple, Anker or Belkin, they might not have the type of product you need.
On the other hand USB-C is designed to exclude water and is better at lint exclusion, never seems to arc, and is a real standard that has many suppliers of quality interfaces.
Grab a random USB C cable, now answer a few questions
- how much power can it deliver?
- how much data can it deliver?
- can it deliver video over USB?
This leads to an immense amount of confusion because people are used to different form factors indicating compatibility.
If the wire protocols are different, then an identical form factor is a hindrance, not an advantage.
There are good usb cables that handle it all, still cost fraction of apple ones due to simple effect of competition, and are more durable. But quality comes at a cost, just you don't need to pay apple profit margins.
With USB-C I have to spend good money for every every cable in order to ensure that any cable I grab from my bag works. And these cables are going to be so thick that they are annoying to use with a mouse or keyboard.
I can rearrange my office and use a cheap 5 meter usb-A to B cable to get to where the printer is now (true story). If I want a 5 meter usb-C to C cable for data I need to spend over $300.
[1] excluding all the possibilities of chargers with incompatible DC barrel plugs, which is generally true of the time frames we're talking about
usb-c is basically a standardized oval.
There's also a couple of universal USB standards: every client/host is supposed to implement USB 2.0, unless they're charging-only; and every client/host is supposed to implement simple power delivery (negotiated through resistor values) at 5V and at least 500mA (for a USB-A 2.0 to USB-C cable, other combinations are supposed to deliver more current).
To add more detail, USB-PD (power delivery) is a complex negotiated protocol. The charger is supposed to output some meager 5v power supply like a traditional USB A supply, and the device asks for some specific voltage, and the charger tells the device if it can do that, and then does it (up to 24v, iirc). PD Chargers are supposed to support any of the supported voltages, but many (eg. Apple MacBook Chargers) only support a subset of the voltages.
With USB C, is the power delivery on a pin these devices don’t have? Then the pin USB A would use to send power isn’t present with USB C (either physically or on purpose)?
Badly designed devices do not negotiate power requirements and just start drawing power, which doesn't work with proper USB-C cables (which expect to negotiate first) but obviously works with USB-A to USB-C cables (which always support the same power requirements)
I just bought a CalDigit element hub and had some hesitation because I thought “how long will I really need the USB A ports?” Evidently they will be handy for quite a while.
USB A devices (and by extension, USB A to USB C cables) always delivers power. USB C devices only deliver power once they see a specific resistor to ground on a control pin. If the device is missing that resistor (actually a pair of resistors, one for each side of the cable), a USB C device on the end of a USB C to USB C cable won't provide power.
(Preemptive nitpicking: actually, USB C devices provide a bit of power in that control pin, which is how they detect that resistor to ground; but that's separate from the main power pins.)
- am I due for another?
- enough to charge my airpods
- enough to charge my airpods
- enough to charge my airpods
And people hoping that Apple’s move to USB C will mean USB3 speeds need to look no further than the latest low end iPad that has USB C. But transfers data at USB 2 speeds. The same happened on many low end to midrange Android phones.
Who is expecting anything out of the low end iPad for anything other than taking notes or watching videos? The new high-end iPads are thunderbolt and USB4.
But more importantly... so? What does this have to do with charging AirPods?
Basically no cables that are USB-C and more than 0.5 meters support charging AND video/high-speed. Unfortunately, I think people just have to accept that there's "data cables" and "PD cables" and "junk short cheap cables that don't do anything". You can spend like $150 buying multi-meter thunderbolt/USB-IF cables that support PD + full data and full video, or just buy two cables.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B093YVRHMB?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_shar...
The low end iPads come with an A14. That’s not exactly a slouch and has the keyboard accessories
2m long 100W PD 5Gbit/s cables 40cm long TB3 cables
Super easy to find, super easy to remember. And all of them already have the new wattage/data rate labels.
There isn’t as much an ecosystem of lightning devices for macs as it was usb a. I assume iPads also had less. Dunno about AirPods thou
I assume they saw the writing on the wall and figured they would wait till the eu forced usb c so users will Blame them Not apple for the switch
Actually incredible to me that people can have this mindset. Have an adapter for your gaff proprietary cable with MFI chips to make sure third parties can't make long-lasting ones cheaply, not for the standardised USB-C one.
Yeah, Apple have changed their preferred physical connector for phones and peripherals once in the last 16 years, from the 30 pin connector to Lightning. When they did that, there was outrage that they were obsoleting all the devices that used the 30 pin connector because of “planned obsolescence”.
Meanwhile, Android phones have gone from ExtUSB to mini-USB, to micro-USB, to USB-C in the same timeframe with all the accompanying adapter / cable / accessory churn. If Apple had changed to USB-C while Android vendors were still mostly using micro-USB, there would have been a repeat of the outrage about “planned obsolescence” again as evil Apple forced people to switch from using Lightning to USB-C.
Except, so did all of the other devices that charge and connect to computers. Go-pros and gamepads and what-have-you required the same cables and went through the same churn, so buying a new cable wasn't another extra cable to carry around in addition to the ones you need for other things. Apple doesn't get to claim that. If I want to use my bluetooth headphones with my iphone on a trip I have to bring a USB-C cable and a lightning cable.
I’m sure they already have a usbc charger for something else by now. Also we all know people would be cheering and praising Apple the day it happens.
Defending lightning in 2023 is ridiculous. USB-C is here and mature and used on their laptops and iPads. Even if you’re knee deep in Apples ecosystem your laptop or tablet already has a charger that would work.
as i said the last time apple changed the connector type people were Very Upset.
Magic Mouse: lightning
I have this work provided combo, and the mouse is the only device in the house that takes a lightning connector.
Cue frantically trying to find that cable every time it gets low..
USB-C and I could just plug the wall charger into it and be done with it.
It was pretty neat and eye opening.
I’m considering the project when I retire my current phone so I can continue to use the old phone as a video camera in my rig where everything else is type C.
It reminds me of a memorable quote from a long-defunct PMP forum over a decade ago: "How can you tell a fake iPod from a real one? It doesn't need iTunes and works like a mass storage device, has an FM radio, voice recorder, and can play videos."
I mean, if you insist on a medical equivalent.
This is the thing he's working on now. He's working on other things. He has hobbies and he has a job. He's going to do what he enjoys doing. Who cares if it's not useful to you or me.
There are other people working on those problems.
As a diabetic, I've been fascinated to watch the progress of things like AAPS, Loop, OpenInsulin, etc. But I'm not going to demand everyone working on "useless" things to jump on the thing that I will specifically benefit from.
People should have the tools to update and maintain their stuff. This is an awesome project that could help minimize e-waste for years to come.
Aren't you in danger of wasting your own time here, when you could be connecting with like-minded users on other venues?
I have NEVER had a single lightning port go bad. Ever. MiniUSB either. Countless microUSB ports and USB-C cables and ports have been destroyed with normal use.
Oh? If that's so, I'd like to take 5. Please send them to me, thanks! As they're free, there's no reason not to do so, right?
I want to like USB-C because it's universal but it just breaks so easily. If they make a good mangentic one all is forgiven, I'm using a non standard "dangerous" one to alleviate it's fragility.
In some markets (Brazil) most iPhones are twice the price of the same phone in the US on a dollar basis.
Lightning can gather dust only in the socket, and it's very easy to clean in comparison.
At their scale they can't just buy commodity parts.
I am sure if Apple is going to comply with the USB-C mandate we are going to get USB-C AirPods after that.
So stupid I have to carry an extra charging cable to charge two of the 3 devices I’m carrying just because Apple wants to make sure I can only buy cables from them.
[1] https://www.amazon.ae/Multi-Functional-Micro-USB-Convertor-T...
I broke down and got the AirPod Pros this year as the noise canceling is just that life changing. So don't worry guys next year you won't need to hack them with after market PCBs as Apple is 100% guaranteed to do it themselves.
I’d love for them to provide a case with USB-C connector instead…
I mean sure, I get open source - but when there are super cheap commercial alternatives commonly available? It doesn't bring much value to the ecosystem.
edit I see by the downvotes I should not say bad things about open source. I'll never do that again...
As someone paid very well to work with open source code, I can tell you that financially open source is often more expensive than proprietary solutions. Yet it provides much, much more value for the money.
Also better Bluetooth earphones with mics which last a whole week, for about 20.