Comment by jackschultz | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jackschultz | Hacker News Reader

There's a great /r/nba thread[0] on this post too, for those looking to see comments from an NBA community perspective.

My couple notes on this post:

1) > For the past 20 years, I’ve occupied myself with social activism, my writing career

Kareem is incredibly good at writing, and with the focus of his writing career, which is something that's rare. Many famous people spout opinions, but him putting a label of "writing career" is really cool to see.

2) It's hard to imaging, going back in time to when LeBron was in high school with his games being played on national tv already, and him still blowing all those expectations out of the water. Absurd how someone can do that.

3) When people talk about GOATs, it'll be interesting to see how much the perspective changes in terms of time frames. LeBron still being one of the best after multiple decades without sustaining injuries is incredibly impressive, and I think people will more and more start to consider high quality play over time just as important in determining who is the best as they do with an few year hot streak.

[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/10x1c9w/abduljabbar_wh...

My unsolicited opinion is that Lebron is the goat because of his level of sustained excellence. 8 Straight finals on 3 different teams and 4 rings overall is actually mind boggling when you think about it. Every team Lebron left became a bottom feeder and lottery candidate and every team he joined instantly became a contender. Number 1 in points, currently 4 in assists, 9 or 10 in rebounds the numbers are just absurd. The totality of his game is unreal.

I can admit MJ had a higher peak and was probably the better competitor but when he "retired" in the 93-94 season the Bulls still made it to the second round in the playoffs and barely lost to the Knicks in 7 games who then made it to the finals. Lebron never had a team like that outside Miami and even with only 2 rings they were definitely dominant.

Took a while for someone to bring up the 8 straight finals with 3 teams. Even with one team, making 8 finals appearances in a row is astounding. Stats against different generations are impossible to compare for any sport, but that many times in a row on the final two teams in giant playoffs, in a sport where the better teams do win (compared to something like NFL or MLB where it's much more toss ups in playoffs), can easily get people to consider him the best.

I still think that his last finals run with the Cavs is the most impressive basketball accomplishment I’ve ever seen. That supporting cast was mediocre to bad, and they came a JR Smith all time blunder from beating a super team.

> Every team Lebron left became a bottom feeder and lottery candidate

Yeah but partly that is because those teams traded everything they could trade, spend a huge amount of money, and once Lebron left they had to blow it all up.

Trade their remaining good players, most of them specifically acquired to be good fits with Lebron but not that useful by themselves.

In that sense Lebron basically did 'Slash and Burn agriculture'. He uses up all local resources, and then sets up a plan to move on, using his influence to engineer a good new situation. He then moves to that place, uses all the resources, and then moves on.

> every team he joined instantly became a contender

Because he picked teams to go to that he knew would be contenders. Are we just gone act he didn't engineer this situations? Like, its not that he went to some shit teams and made them good. He pick and built situations so he would join amazingly good team mates.

He had 2 teams who had absurdly good 'Big 3s'.

> 8 Straight finals on 3 different teams

It should be noted that this is partly because he was in an incredibly bad eastern conference. Like absolutely historically terrible. And this is not some 'Lebron hater' take, if you look at the statistics like SRS for the other teams in the East in those 8 years, none of them were great. A few decent teams, but that it.

The best teams he faces was the aging Celtics in 2011 and then the Bulls. Bulls were only around a short time and were a defense first team with a very young star (young stars basically never win in the NBA). The Bulls might have been competition but Rose got hurt.

So for the next 6 years the competition was basically, Raptors and the Pacers, neither were all that good. While Lebron had a Big 3, the Pacers had basically had , and the Raptors basically ha no real star player.

Who is the best player Lebron beat in 8 years going to the East finals? How many Top 10 players?

So while its impressive he didn't make a mistake, and its impressive he pulled some of those old cavs teams to the finals, its isn't as monumental an achievement as its made out to be.

> Lebron never had a team like that outside Miami

Some of the second Cavs teams were pretty fantastic actually. Like seriously, the amount of talent on them was crazy.

We also have to remember that Jordan had basically nothing on his team for years and had to face the Celtics (literally one of the best teams in history) and then Bad Boy Pistons (historically great team).

Not to stoke the flames of a religious war but I think this is why ultimately James will be recognized as the GOAT over MJ (until the next GOAT comes along)

Ultimately he won't, because counting stats aren't as important as being the best in the moment, especially when rules have changed that have turned NBA competitions into glorified 1990s era all star games. Players can literally take an extra step with the ball in their hands that they couldn't 20 years ago. Bigs can no longer crowd the paint. For guy who is as bad a shooter as Lebron, those are crazy benefits.

LeBron isn't the GOAT because of the scoring title (just like Kareem wasn't the GOAT before him). He's the GOAT because for most of his 20 seasons (and counting), and the 1400+ games he's played so far, he was the best in the moment, as you put it. This compares with Jordan's 15 seasons -- 2 of which were with the Wizards where Jordan was nowhere near his prime anymore -- and 1100 games. The Lakers may be a mess, but LeBron is still a top 5 player in the league in his 20th season, and pretty close to his peak performance.

He's not the GOAT at all.

Lebron's spent most of his career not even being the best player in the league. He's not even the most significant player of his own era. That'd be Steph Curry. And he utterly choked away huge moments when he had a talent advantage. He hasn't been a top 5 player in years because he hasn't played defense full time since 2015.

He passes neither the eyeball test nor the accolade test. He just fails to measure up.

>Lebron's spent most of his career not even being the best player in the league. He's not even the most significant player of his own era. That'd be Steph Curry. And he utterly choked away huge moments when he had a talent advantage. He hasn't been a top 5 player in years because he hasn't played defense full time since 2015.

Typical Lebron hater. Steph isn't even in the same conversation as Lebron, he had 2 magical years but even someone like KD was way more significant during that era. You can be a Golden State stan all you want but this is just silly.

>He passes neither the eyeball test nor the accolade test. He just fails to measure up.

All time points leader, 4th all time in assists, 4 rings, 4 Finals MVPs, 4 League MVPs, a scoring title, an assist title, and HES STILL NOT DONE. Idk if you ever actually watched NBA games since Lebron went Pro or what but he was clearly the most dominant player in the league for over a decade. 8 finals in a row. You sir are on drugs.

> even someone like KD was way more significant during that era.

Hard disagree. Have you played pickup basketball before and after Steph? I'm not even saying this is a good thing, but Steph Curry has quite clearly changed the way basketball is played and he made people want to go out and play the game. KD is of course an exceptional player, but how many people model their game after him or try to play like him?

Steph Curry is also pretty clearly the most skilled player in basketball history. The only other player who even comes close is Kyrie Irving. Personally, I appreciate this as much as LeBron and KD's ability to exploit their significant physical advantages (though both are also obviously great basketball minds too). Also, I don't say this as a conspiracist, but how the game is officiated matters too. Would the Cavs have won in 2016 if they weren't given tremendous liberty to manhandle Curry off the ball?

Having said all that, I think it's pretty easy to make a case for LeBron. He and Steph are the two most significant players of their generation. It's hard to argue against LeBron's overall body of work but there is a transcendent magic to Steph's game that sways me. Call it 1a and 1b. But I respect the case for LeBron.

I mean you can make the case for Steph changing the game but he's not in the conversation for GOAT at all. I'm not sure you can put him in the greatest PG convo either. Best shooter of all time bar none? Yeah obviously, but idk beyond that.

He has 4 titles. 2 he achieved with no other Superstar on his team. That's the same amount of titles Lebron has.

And on avg, its hard to argue that Lebron has not had the better team. Lebron moved from one team to another always engineering situations to get the best possible team mates. Lebron has played with more high level team mates then basically anybody in NBA history (outside of maybe Kyrie).

> he had 2 magical years but even someone like KD was way more significant during that era

Everybody that knows anything about Basketball stats would disagree.

Plus, Curry has won 2 titles without KD, and in neither of those runs did he have a Top player with him, like Lebron had with AD and Wade.

GOAT discussions tend to be fruitless anyway as every participant weighs the metrics differently.

For instance, some might count losing in the playoffs more times than another player against a GOAT candidate. However, others might use those same playoff losses as a positive for the GOAT candidate since the overall team was bad and they wouldn't have made the playoffs without them.

and here we go

begun, the GOAT wars have

He can't be the GOAT simply because he's lost 3 finals to Steph Curry. Curry is definitely not the GOAT, but Curry was objectively better in the 3 series that would have solidified LeBron's legacy.

Basketball is not a one-on-one game. Steph Curry is arguably the best shooter ever (also better than MJ in that regard), but no one considers him the best all-round player. Lebron didn't lose to Curry, the Cavs lost to a superior Warriors team; there's a difference. The Bulls with MJ were the best team in the NBA and even when they were without MJ they still had the third best record in the NBA ('93-'94). James has been the best player in the NBA most of his career but not always on the best team; no way were the Cavs a top seed team without him.

it's a team game and steph is a greater leader than LeBron. Also, LeBron won't be the GOAT just because 4 titles are less significant than 6 and Jordan was an international phenomenom in the 90s the world has not seen since in Basketball. Everyone knew Jordan in Europe. Try that with LeBron.

Well Jordan lost in the first round 3 times.

Can he be considered the goat if lost in the first round 3 times?

Twice to Larry Bird, Surely Jordan can't be the goat if he lost to Bird 2x in the very first round and not the finals?

Surely you must see how flawed your logic is here?

The difference is the first round aren't the finals. Once you get to the finals, you need to be able to rally your team to win. LeBron couldn't do that 3x against Curry. MJ did it all 6x.

You can't reduce it to the finals.

It's all about the finals though. The best ever needs to prove it by winning the most championships.

> It's all about the finals though. The best ever needs to prove it by winning the most championships

Well then you'll certainly agree that Bill Russell is the undisputed goat if that is your criteria.

I thought it was assumed that basketball wasn't a truly competitive sport until the merger of the basketball leagues (1980s onwards)

On the other hand, there were 10-15 more possessions per game in Kareem's career relative to LeBron's and, on average, approximately equivalent points per game. So a lot of this is a wash.

He won't, because Nike spent billions of dollars convincing everyone MJ was the greatest.

I'm also tired of the "wants it more" and "works the hardest" conversations. Somewhere out there is a dude who is working just as hard, but he's 5'6", has little fast twitch, and small hands. No matter how much he wants it, he'll never be an NBA all star.

Nike hasn't invested billions on Lebron?

They didn't run his campaigns as him being the best ever, did they? MJ was still top dog at Nike, right?

That also runs into my other theory of whoever was #1 when the mid 80's to early 90's rolled around stays at #1 due to branding becoming "modern".

Skateboarding? Tony Hawk; Football video game: Madden.

After that period of time, the brands stopped moving over for new things coming up.

I don't believe you can compare GOATs across eras. MJ & others have said this.

Anyone playing today has been able to build upon a ton of knowledge based on what the prior GOATs did. If they're not better than players 3 decades ago, that's pretty bad.

Also the game is dramatically different, technology is better & medicine is better.

I disagree. We're not comparing MJ to LBJ directly (as in, who would win if they played each other), nor are we measuring them against a fixed metric such as we can for runners (who we expect to be faster 30 years later).

Rather, we are measuring them against the other players in their time. Yes, the tech and fitness is better today than in Jordan's era, but it's better for all of LeBron's contemporaries too who he had to beat and be better than. Same thing with the game rules changing -- it's easier for LBJ to score, but it's easier for his opponents to score too.

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