What I Think About LeBron Breaking My NBA Scoring Record | Hacker News Reader

What I Think About LeBron Breaking My NBA Scoring Record

kareem.substack.com

450 pointsbreck185 comments

"It’s as if I won a billion dollars in a lottery and 39 years later someone won two billion dollars. How would I feel? Grateful that I won and happy that the next person also won. His winning in no way affects my winning."

What a great quote and general outlook on life.

Cap is special, always has been, just seems like a real, true, gem of a person.

I grew watching the Showtime Lakers. I remember when he got the record and then I remember the farewell tour when he said he was going to retire. The game is so incredibly different now. I think you first have to recognize that Kareem was "The Guy," teams were built around him and then I'm sure there were bumps and stuff but he was pretty gracious when Magic came in and clearly became the super star. In that first championship Magic won, Cap sat out with an injury and Magic, the greatest playmaker of all time, shifted over and played center and played like Kareem; albeit with a "baby" skyhook... That's hard for a lot of guys to be gracious when a "young buck" starts coming up. That's another thing, the dude was synonymous with a particular shot, you think "sky hook," you think Kareem. There are a few guys, Reggie Mullen in 3point land, maybe. Steph Curry from way out, Jordan in the lane, if they get the ball, there is a feeling that it's predestined and they will score points. Kareem would get the ball out on the baseline, slowly back in and he had an undefendable shot in the sky hook and when it was on he could do that over and over and over and his team would win.

As a short white dude watching it all, I can remember a few times in the early to mid-1980s when the local sports reporter on TV referred to "brother ball" being played. There were definitely racial aspects to the Lakers vs the Celtics. I remember some people in the media kind of down playing it, "he's just a big guy with one move... he can't shoot like Bird can." And to see that record last as long as it has, it's amazing.

I think he's saying that he still holds the record if we adjust for inflation

Not sure how deep you intended this joke to go, but the NBA had 23 franchises in 1980 [0] that scored 108 points per game[1].

Now there are 30 franchises scoring 114 points per game.

If you look at the points per game stats, scoring dipped as the number of teams expanded, but rule changes, officiating changes and increases in talent over time led to more points being scored.

So a 1980 point was almost certainly worth more than a 2022 point.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980%E2%80%9381_NBA_season

[1]https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_g...

edits: typos

I think most people accept that sports change over time and it's difficult to compare historical players with current ones.

Ignoring rule changes, there's the fact that athletes can collect so much data about their performance and use that information to improve in ways that just weren't available 30-50 years ago. Not to mention all of the scientific breakthroughs society has achieved in our understanding of the human body, nutrition, pharmacology, etc. An athlete born in 2020 has a huge advantage over one born in 1920.

> An athlete born in 2020 has a huge advantage over one born in 1920.

A big disadvantage, though, too: he has to play against players with the same advantages.

So true!

Look at clips of Wayne Gretzky from the 1980's, which is also when he set all-time records that have not yet been surpassed (and people still believe never will, though Ovechkin has a chance at the goals record)

What's incredible isn't what he's doing, it's what everyone else around him is NOT doing.

* He's skating fast but not that fast (compared to modern skaters)

* His shot is accurate but he's not a sniper. Many shots never leave the ice

* But the defenders have absolutely no checking ability

* And the goalies are upright! The butterfly style hasn't been popularized yet! They're just awkard sieve slowly shuffling around in net.

In the 20 seasons Lebron has been in the NBA the average points scored by a team per game has been 103, while in KAJ's first 20 seasons the average was 109. The early 2000's were incredibly slow compared to the 70's and 80's[0].

https://e7n9s5t9.stackpathcdn.com/articles/wp-content/upload...

Yes, absolutely correct. I'd say the Showtime Lakers are the poster child for fast pace in the 80s.

This is why I included the number of teams. PPG has fluctuated across eras, but total points has gone up over time.[0]

Talent dilution in the expansion from 23 to 30 teams undoubtedly had an effect on pace in the late 90s/2000s.

There's probably a good formula for determining the value of a point across eras, but I'm not going to waste too many brain cells on it.

[0]https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_total...

I love you HN. Never change.

Stuff like the hand checking rule and better floor spacing as a result of the rise in prominence of the 3 point shot come to mind

Nevermind that the 3pointer was introduced 10 years after Kareem's rookie season. He has a single 3 pointer made in his career

pretty crazy when you compare it to many similar sized players who have come after him, making a living beyond the three point line!

Well the NBA didn't create the 3 point line until 1979 which was basically half way into Abdul-Jabbar's career - so it kind of accurate to say "point inflation" in a sense

Edit: statbook link https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.htm...

This stuff is really hard to gauge. On one hand the NBA officiating rules have changed to where "defense" like what was seen in 70's through early 2000's is not happening in this league. Like it or not the league has switched from a hard nose interior game(see lots of dunking and post moves) to one that is played from distance ala 3 pointers (thanks mid-2010's Warriors!).

So you have that data point, the other one to focus on is health, given the stuff above - players careers, or good players will see a longer career due to less wear on their bodies from tough physical defense they face. They also have really good medical care and recovery systems, I bet KAJ wish he had hyperbaric chambers to help him recover! But.. every other player also has these tools so its a wash.

I think the big game changer is the defense rules change, and then to a lessor factor couple that with players having better access to health and recovery systems I definitely see a future player breaking Lebron's scoring record.

The defensive changes are a bit over-stated in my opinion. Sure there is no hand checking, arm barring or really hard fouls (that are not flagrant) but there is zone defense. So when you get by your defender, there can easily be 2-3 guys already waiting for you. Whereas before, there were 2-3 guys rotating over to try to meet you at the rim. Schematically it seems that scoring is as easy/hard as it ever was even if the tactics have evolved.

It's always hard to do a side-by-side comparison between two athletes that did not play during the same era. Rules change, competition is different, and playing conditions can also be different.

In golf, today's players have much different equipment than in earlier times but the lengths of courses has increased. In baseball, pitching is not the same. Just like with Wilt Chamberlain's 100 point game; who knows if any of the current superstars could match it if the conditions for that game could be duplicated somehow.

Any discussion of GOAT will bring a lot of disagreement because none of the sports are static.

Kareem understands that life is a collaborative game, not a zero-sum game. This is extra special coming from an athlete whose career was in excelling in a zero-sum game.

To be fair, it’s much easier to have a collaborative view on life once you’re financially independent or have exceeded your goals.

The unpaid college star that couldn’t make the NBA and is now struggling to make ends meet might not see life as a collaborative game.

Nah I think you have it backwards. The ones who make it have that mindset throughout.

I don’t think your theory explains angry rich people or cutthroat billionaires or self-indulgent winners or any successful person who’s ever evolved from being mean to being nice.

We’re celebrating Kareem for how unique he is in his outlook because it’s so rare.

> > We’re celebrating Kareem for how unique he is in his outlook because it’s so rare.

How is he unique? No human could possibly still milking an achievement 35 years into past.

Financially maybe, but brain juice wise not so much.

Led Zeppelin hate to play Stairway to Heaven and Eagles have come to hate Hotel California and Tom Brady is for sure tired to explain for the 1000th time the game winning drive against the St.Louis Rams in SuperBowl 2001.

There is a reason why all the people above ask to get paid a whole lot in order to once again 'perform the classics'. The exception is the other way around.

> There is a reason why all the people above ask to get paid a whole lot in order to once again 'perform the classics'. The exception is the other way around.

Didn't know about that, but it explains a certain dynamic I've been wondering about. You go to a concert of a group that's been around for some years, maybe decades. You come there for the classics - the songs you've heard many years ago and grew to appreciate, the texts that you found some meaning in at some point in life. But the band plays new pieces, one after other, all inferior, all being not the thing you came for. You look around, you notice the facial expressions and body language of others in the audience. You know they came in for the classics too. The performers surely know that too. Yet they keep playing the new stuff, throwing in an older piece every now and then, seemingly oblivious to the meaning of applause and standing ovation they get each time.

I've assumed it's mostly that the group really wants to try new things. But it may just be that they're tired playing the old ones. Still, it's a conflict of expectation, and why I personally don't go to concerts much.

Clutch went through something somewhat similar, according to an interview with I think Neil Fallon. They burned out for awhile on playing "Electric Worry", but were convinced that it was worth playing because it was the ace up their sleeve- so long as they included it in a set, fans would be happy and overlook any experimental new stuff that didn't work out as well.

Of course, they also have a reputation for crossing into nearly every subgenre of rock, so their hard core fans are perhaps a bit more tolerant than other bands when they branch out. Even so, having watched a number of their concerts online (never had the opportunity to see a show live, sadly) they do seem to have a healthy blend of old and new in each set, and the atmosphere is always electric.

That's because say Page, Plant and John Paul Jones were there when they wrote and recorded 'Stairway to Heaven'. It's not like they felt something uniquely great about that piece of music, more likely they felt exactly the same as they did after writing and recording the other 300+ songs they recorded in their life.

They probably think we are idiots for elevating it so much, and demand a premium to play it for the 3000th time, and also demand a premium for talking about and put up the act of having to sell to people the illusion that they also thought that something metaphysical was happening in the studio.

Kids think 'doing it for the content' is something new, while it has always been around. People have 'done stuff for the content' for ages in order to buy nice cars, real estate, planes etc.

I'm almost sure that what we feel when we hear 'Stairway to Heaven' is approximately the same enthusiasm they feel when they dump 20M on a private island in the Bahamas or access some new designer drug that is only availible for the wealthy.

You can only unlock that type of enthusiasm if you are not involved in the creation and the promotion of the the thing being commercialised.

100 % agree on this. Rich people are nicer because they don't need much from the other party.

To be clear, what I really think is you need to be a little cynical in life to "make" it.

Or have wealthy parents (or grandparents, etc.).

Absolutely. Use all the advantages you have in life.

Kareem literally says this in his post:

> I don’t blame him for thinking that I might be bothered because he knows how competitive I used to be.

Michael Jordan definitely didn't have this mindset, and he was the greatest of all time. He was the epitome of cut throat.

The 90’s were a funny time, history was over so we declared the best sports players at the time to be the “greatest ever.”

The only sports that have seen their best players already are Baseball and Cycling, because they’ve gotten good at catching steroid users.

The greatest of all time is always understood to mean the greatest of all time so far. Nobody is pretending this is predictive of the future. There might be a 9 year old out there right now that is going to grow up and destroy Jordan's legacy. But as of now, no other player to play the game has surpassed him.

Honestly, I'm a bit bummed that the 'greatest of all time' era was when this stupid 'illegal defense' rule, which is probably the stupidest rule ever in basketball, was deciding games.

Basketball isn't really a 5 on 5 sport with this rule. It's a 2 on 2 or a 3 on 3.

I remember in 2004, my brother's coach gave him a VHS collection of 60s and 70s NBA games because "that's when the US played team basketball, that's how I want you to play". I think he also gave him the spurs games of that year and a couple of eurobasket DVDs.

Yes and people try to put Lebron side by side with Jordan but he's not even the best Laker in my opinion. I'd pick 3 Lakers ahead of him if I was doing an all-time draft.

You forget javelin throwing, because the javelins were redesigned to keep them from possibly going into the stands

What? No. Bill Russell was the greatest. MJ is just the greatest that most people have seen (except that LeBron is making a better and better case...)

This has some truth to it, but it’s also a cynical middle-brow dismissal.

Plenty of rich are ultra competitive and plenty of poor people are collaborative. Also, older are generally a bit mellower and reflective, but even teenagers can demonstrate good team work and community thinking.

A viewpoint like Kareem’s should be celebrated, not doused with cynicism.

He's a Muslim, and Islam gives you that collaborative and content outlook.

I also like this one: "If I had a choice of having my scoring record remain intact for another hundred years or spend one afternoon with my grandchildren, I’d be on the floor in seconds stacking Legos and eating Uncrustables."

Man says something so people will like him when he doesn't have the option to actually make that decision.

I bet he would skip the 3 hours to remain #1.

If it was Jordan, that would be true. With Kareem, I'm not so sure that's the case - "But that ain't me today. I'm 75. The only time I ever think of the record is when someone brings it up."

He's an amazing writer.

I really liked his article on his friend, Bruce Lee.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/kareem-abdul-ja...

I think he's the greatest, but my dad says he doesn't work hard enough on defense. And he says that lots of times he doesn't even run down court. And that he doesn't really try except during the playoffs.

The hell he doesn’t! LISTEN, KID! We've been hearing that crap ever since he was at UCLA. He’s out there busting my buns every night! Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes!

Have you ever seen a grown man naked?

> What a great quote and general outlook on life.

I kind of almost don't believe it/it's too good to be true.

You don't think any part of him is sour? He put a 20 year career in the league, was #1, and now he got passed and will forever be at least #2.

I feel like if I was in a similar situation (I'll never know what it's like whatsoever to be all time NBA leading anything), I'd want to come off as happy for the next guy but in reality, if it's a prestigious title I held for years and it finally got stolen from me... I don't know how internally happy I'd be.

He says he is not. He said he might have been in the past, but today there is no sourness.

And we have to believe him. He is the ultimate authority on what he feels. He also has the unique perspective of being in the position of someone who has had the record of all-time leading scorer in the NBA taken from him. You do not. I do not. We do not even possess any records to be taken.

So no, we don't know how we'd feel in that situation. It's purely hypothetical on our end. We have to trust his words.

Not to mention, neither of us are Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. And I don't mean that neither of us are legendary NBA players. I mean neither of us are that man. We have not lived his life. We have not experienced his struggles, achievements, highs, lows, etc. We do not have his parents, etc. So even if you or I would feel like something was stolen from us that still doesn't tell us that he would feel the same.

I think when you're 25 it's good to have the competitive fire and not want your record to be broken, when you're 75 it's good to have a little more equanimity.

> You don't think any part of him is sour?

Did you not read the article? I wouldn't be sour about it either, if I were 75. Someone was bound to surpass you; that is life.

He was also 3 for 3 at the college national championship level; Lebron can't take that from him.

I get the message he's trying to convey, but I think it's just a bad analogy. Reaching the NBA scoring record would presumably require lots of discipline, good habits, hours of hard effort, practice, etc....winning the lottery seems like mostly luck to me. I get it that you need luck in order to be able to produce that effort, but I don't really see how those two events can be equivalent at all.

Being 7 foot whatever can't hurt either. That's gotta be a little bit like winning the basketball genetic lottery.

Sadly, I suspect most actual billionaires don’t share this outlook.

> If I had a choice of having my scoring record remain intact for another hundred years or spend one afternoon with my grandchildren, I’d be on the floor in seconds stacking Legos and eating Uncrustables.

Amazing. This guy gets it. We worship competitors like Jordan who “always want to win.” But we forget that all that really matters is the time we get with our loved ones. That’s what true winning is. Kareem is wise

Kareem himself says in this article:

> if someone had broken my record within ten years of me setting it.... I might have hobbled out of retirement just to add a few more points on my record

Different approaches serve you well at different times in your life. I bet a big part of the reason Kareem can be at peace at 75 is knowing that he busted his ass to make the best use of his abilities during his competitive lifetime. He played at an elite level in the NBA for an incredibly long time, which testifies to an incredible level of discipline, focus, and competitiveness, and then spent years as an assistant coach. If he had taken his current attitude when he was young, he might not have been as relaxed and happy now.

Also, as fierce of a competitor as Kareem was, even back then he was still (from my perspective) a good family man. I went to elementary school with his son. My memories of him are from birthday parties (mostly two tree trunk legs) and other activities.

I hope his coworkers never asked you if you like movies about gladiators.

Yep, some athletes know how to let it go, if not so much when. But others that is what always defined them and don't know anything else. Adjustment can be hard. This happens to ex-military as well.

Pretty sure Kareem always wanted to win when he played.

Maybe this is just him understanding that the scoring record is a statistical artifact, not a real competition.

I mean, you wanna be a family man, ... that's great?

But yeah, of course, if we're tuning in to watch basketball .... of course we wanna watch the savage competitors like Jordan crush his competition. That's the excitement of watching sports. Not their private lives.

Nobody is tuning in nor paying expensive season tickets to watch a guy be a family man.

So yeah.... that's why people are obsessed with Jordan and every great/promising player henceforth in the NBA until the end of time will be measured against that yardstick.

No it is definitely also appealing to see someone win without sweating it _too much_. There is some elegance to being very good at something while admitting that other things may be more important.

Watching someone as obsessed like Jordan is one kind of fun. Someone who has outside interests, is a family guy, or is otherwise unusual (while still winning) is a different kind of fun.

Unsure why you had to turn this into a dig at Michael Jordan.

And before you say it's not a dig at him, what could possibly be the implication of calling Kareem a true "winner" in comparison to the previous statement about a competitor like Jordan who always wants to win?

Did I miss something where Michael Jordan said he doesn't want to spend time with his kids or grandkids if he has them? Is that what the "fuck them kids" meme is actually about?

I think the point is Kareem seems genuinely happy in life, and Mike still carries animosity towards people he worked/played with decades ago.

I know which way I’d rather be.

It was kind of a weird comment.

Seems to imply that in the world of professional basketball there's something wrong with the being ultra competitive and desiring to win and defeat one's enemies and winning a championship and that, instead, being a family man is more the real measure of success. Which, if true, I think both sports fans and sports organizations have all missed the memo.

My buddy Chuck is a great family man. Not a great ball player. Should he join the NBA?

> Is that what the "fuck them kids" meme is actually about?

I think this meme is about MJ's general disdain for signing autographs or taking pics with people even famous people like rappers. He is the classic example of "never meet your heroes". Which, again, even if he is the biggest prick off court, it hardly detracts from his reputation as being one of the greatest NBA players, and arguably, thee most famous athlete across all sports, of all time.

In other words, even though Gretzky, for example, is greater than MJ in terms of stats, no one had a bigger presence in the '80s and '90s than MJ around the world across all sports fandoms.

Jordan is almost 20 years younger, let's see what he thinks when he's 75 years old.

Fair, but though I was not alive during his career, he seems to have always been portrayed as level headed and wise.

He had a mean streak

https://youtu.be/aN57mvDICXw

Jordan has a mean steak.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jordan%27s_Steakhous...

Are you referring to Kareem? If so, that's not true at all. If you have HBO Max, watch Kareem: Minority of One.

Also maybe: that scene in Airplane!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSi6iF9kVBs

Yes I was referring to Kareem. Thanks for the recommendation

Jordan? That does not match his post-nba behaviour or info we now know about his playing days.

He was kind of considered very aloof and an asshole during his career. Sometimes people age and become more mellow.

The sports press hate an introvert.

Unfortunately people who like to socialize much less than their colleagues seem to have these labels put on them quite frequently.

There's a great /r/nba thread[0] on this post too, for those looking to see comments from an NBA community perspective.

My couple notes on this post:

1) > For the past 20 years, I’ve occupied myself with social activism, my writing career

Kareem is incredibly good at writing, and with the focus of his writing career, which is something that's rare. Many famous people spout opinions, but him putting a label of "writing career" is really cool to see.

2) It's hard to imaging, going back in time to when LeBron was in high school with his games being played on national tv already, and him still blowing all those expectations out of the water. Absurd how someone can do that.

3) When people talk about GOATs, it'll be interesting to see how much the perspective changes in terms of time frames. LeBron still being one of the best after multiple decades without sustaining injuries is incredibly impressive, and I think people will more and more start to consider high quality play over time just as important in determining who is the best as they do with an few year hot streak.

[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/10x1c9w/abduljabbar_wh...

My unsolicited opinion is that Lebron is the goat because of his level of sustained excellence. 8 Straight finals on 3 different teams and 4 rings overall is actually mind boggling when you think about it. Every team Lebron left became a bottom feeder and lottery candidate and every team he joined instantly became a contender. Number 1 in points, currently 4 in assists, 9 or 10 in rebounds the numbers are just absurd. The totality of his game is unreal.

I can admit MJ had a higher peak and was probably the better competitor but when he "retired" in the 93-94 season the Bulls still made it to the second round in the playoffs and barely lost to the Knicks in 7 games who then made it to the finals. Lebron never had a team like that outside Miami and even with only 2 rings they were definitely dominant.

> Every team Lebron left became a bottom feeder and lottery candidate

Yeah but partly that is because those teams traded everything they could trade, spend a huge amount of money, and once Lebron left they had to blow it all up.

Trade their remaining good players, most of them specifically acquired to be good fits with Lebron but not that useful by themselves.

In that sense Lebron basically did 'Slash and Burn agriculture'. He uses up all local resources, and then sets up a plan to move on, using his influence to engineer a good new situation. He then moves to that place, uses all the resources, and then moves on.

> every team he joined instantly became a contender

Because he picked teams to go to that he knew would be contenders. Are we just gone act he didn't engineer this situations? Like, its not that he went to some shit teams and made them good. He pick and built situations so he would join amazingly good team mates.

He had 2 teams who had absurdly good 'Big 3s'.

> 8 Straight finals on 3 different teams

It should be noted that this is partly because he was in an incredibly bad eastern conference. Like absolutely historically terrible. And this is not some 'Lebron hater' take, if you look at the statistics like SRS for the other teams in the East in those 8 years, none of them were great. A few decent teams, but that it.

The best teams he faces was the aging Celtics in 2011 and then the Bulls. Bulls were only around a short time and were a defense first team with a very young star (young stars basically never win in the NBA). The Bulls might have been competition but Rose got hurt.

So for the next 6 years the competition was basically, Raptors and the Pacers, neither were all that good. While Lebron had a Big 3, the Pacers had basically had , and the Raptors basically ha no real star player.

Who is the best player Lebron beat in 8 years going to the East finals? How many Top 10 players?

So while its impressive he didn't make a mistake, and its impressive he pulled some of those old cavs teams to the finals, its isn't as monumental an achievement as its made out to be.

> Lebron never had a team like that outside Miami

Some of the second Cavs teams were pretty fantastic actually. Like seriously, the amount of talent on them was crazy.

We also have to remember that Jordan had basically nothing on his team for years and had to face the Celtics (literally one of the best teams in history) and then Bad Boy Pistons (historically great team).

Took a while for someone to bring up the 8 straight finals with 3 teams. Even with one team, making 8 finals appearances in a row is astounding. Stats against different generations are impossible to compare for any sport, but that many times in a row on the final two teams in giant playoffs, in a sport where the better teams do win (compared to something like NFL or MLB where it's much more toss ups in playoffs), can easily get people to consider him the best.

I still think that his last finals run with the Cavs is the most impressive basketball accomplishment I’ve ever seen. That supporting cast was mediocre to bad, and they came a JR Smith all time blunder from beating a super team.

Not to stoke the flames of a religious war but I think this is why ultimately James will be recognized as the GOAT over MJ (until the next GOAT comes along)

Ultimately he won't, because counting stats aren't as important as being the best in the moment, especially when rules have changed that have turned NBA competitions into glorified 1990s era all star games. Players can literally take an extra step with the ball in their hands that they couldn't 20 years ago. Bigs can no longer crowd the paint. For guy who is as bad a shooter as Lebron, those are crazy benefits.

LeBron isn't the GOAT because of the scoring title (just like Kareem wasn't the GOAT before him). He's the GOAT because for most of his 20 seasons (and counting), and the 1400+ games he's played so far, he was the best in the moment, as you put it. This compares with Jordan's 15 seasons -- 2 of which were with the Wizards where Jordan was nowhere near his prime anymore -- and 1100 games. The Lakers may be a mess, but LeBron is still a top 5 player in the league in his 20th season, and pretty close to his peak performance.

He can't be the GOAT simply because he's lost 3 finals to Steph Curry. Curry is definitely not the GOAT, but Curry was objectively better in the 3 series that would have solidified LeBron's legacy.

Basketball is not a one-on-one game. Steph Curry is arguably the best shooter ever (also better than MJ in that regard), but no one considers him the best all-round player. Lebron didn't lose to Curry, the Cavs lost to a superior Warriors team; there's a difference. The Bulls with MJ were the best team in the NBA and even when they were without MJ they still had the third best record in the NBA ('93-'94). James has been the best player in the NBA most of his career but not always on the best team; no way were the Cavs a top seed team without him.

it's a team game and steph is a greater leader than LeBron. Also, LeBron won't be the GOAT just because 4 titles are less significant than 6 and Jordan was an international phenomenom in the 90s the world has not seen since in Basketball. Everyone knew Jordan in Europe. Try that with LeBron.

Well Jordan lost in the first round 3 times.

Can he be considered the goat if lost in the first round 3 times?

Twice to Larry Bird, Surely Jordan can't be the goat if he lost to Bird 2x in the very first round and not the finals?

Surely you must see how flawed your logic is here?

The difference is the first round aren't the finals. Once you get to the finals, you need to be able to rally your team to win. LeBron couldn't do that 3x against Curry. MJ did it all 6x.

You can't reduce it to the finals.

It's all about the finals though. The best ever needs to prove it by winning the most championships.

> It's all about the finals though. The best ever needs to prove it by winning the most championships

Well then you'll certainly agree that Bill Russell is the undisputed goat if that is your criteria.

I thought it was assumed that basketball wasn't a truly competitive sport until the merger of the basketball leagues (1980s onwards)

He's not the GOAT at all.

Lebron's spent most of his career not even being the best player in the league. He's not even the most significant player of his own era. That'd be Steph Curry. And he utterly choked away huge moments when he had a talent advantage. He hasn't been a top 5 player in years because he hasn't played defense full time since 2015.

He passes neither the eyeball test nor the accolade test. He just fails to measure up.

GOAT discussions tend to be fruitless anyway as every participant weighs the metrics differently.

For instance, some might count losing in the playoffs more times than another player against a GOAT candidate. However, others might use those same playoff losses as a positive for the GOAT candidate since the overall team was bad and they wouldn't have made the playoffs without them.

>Lebron's spent most of his career not even being the best player in the league. He's not even the most significant player of his own era. That'd be Steph Curry. And he utterly choked away huge moments when he had a talent advantage. He hasn't been a top 5 player in years because he hasn't played defense full time since 2015.

Typical Lebron hater. Steph isn't even in the same conversation as Lebron, he had 2 magical years but even someone like KD was way more significant during that era. You can be a Golden State stan all you want but this is just silly.

>He passes neither the eyeball test nor the accolade test. He just fails to measure up.

All time points leader, 4th all time in assists, 4 rings, 4 Finals MVPs, 4 League MVPs, a scoring title, an assist title, and HES STILL NOT DONE. Idk if you ever actually watched NBA games since Lebron went Pro or what but he was clearly the most dominant player in the league for over a decade. 8 finals in a row. You sir are on drugs.

> even someone like KD was way more significant during that era.

Hard disagree. Have you played pickup basketball before and after Steph? I'm not even saying this is a good thing, but Steph Curry has quite clearly changed the way basketball is played and he made people want to go out and play the game. KD is of course an exceptional player, but how many people model their game after him or try to play like him?

Steph Curry is also pretty clearly the most skilled player in basketball history. The only other player who even comes close is Kyrie Irving. Personally, I appreciate this as much as LeBron and KD's ability to exploit their significant physical advantages (though both are also obviously great basketball minds too). Also, I don't say this as a conspiracist, but how the game is officiated matters too. Would the Cavs have won in 2016 if they weren't given tremendous liberty to manhandle Curry off the ball?

Having said all that, I think it's pretty easy to make a case for LeBron. He and Steph are the two most significant players of their generation. It's hard to argue against LeBron's overall body of work but there is a transcendent magic to Steph's game that sways me. Call it 1a and 1b. But I respect the case for LeBron.

I mean you can make the case for Steph changing the game but he's not in the conversation for GOAT at all. I'm not sure you can put him in the greatest PG convo either. Best shooter of all time bar none? Yeah obviously, but idk beyond that.

He has 4 titles. 2 he achieved with no other Superstar on his team. That's the same amount of titles Lebron has.

And on avg, its hard to argue that Lebron has not had the better team. Lebron moved from one team to another always engineering situations to get the best possible team mates. Lebron has played with more high level team mates then basically anybody in NBA history (outside of maybe Kyrie).

> he had 2 magical years but even someone like KD was way more significant during that era

Everybody that knows anything about Basketball stats would disagree.

Plus, Curry has won 2 titles without KD, and in neither of those runs did he have a Top player with him, like Lebron had with AD and Wade.

and here we go

begun, the GOAT wars have

On the other hand, there were 10-15 more possessions per game in Kareem's career relative to LeBron's and, on average, approximately equivalent points per game. So a lot of this is a wash.

He won't, because Nike spent billions of dollars convincing everyone MJ was the greatest.

I'm also tired of the "wants it more" and "works the hardest" conversations. Somewhere out there is a dude who is working just as hard, but he's 5'6", has little fast twitch, and small hands. No matter how much he wants it, he'll never be an NBA all star.

Nike hasn't invested billions on Lebron?

They didn't run his campaigns as him being the best ever, did they? MJ was still top dog at Nike, right?

That also runs into my other theory of whoever was #1 when the mid 80's to early 90's rolled around stays at #1 due to branding becoming "modern".

Skateboarding? Tony Hawk; Football video game: Madden.

After that period of time, the brands stopped moving over for new things coming up.

I don't believe you can compare GOATs across eras. MJ & others have said this.

Anyone playing today has been able to build upon a ton of knowledge based on what the prior GOATs did. If they're not better than players 3 decades ago, that's pretty bad.

Also the game is dramatically different, technology is better & medicine is better.

I disagree. We're not comparing MJ to LBJ directly (as in, who would win if they played each other), nor are we measuring them against a fixed metric such as we can for runners (who we expect to be faster 30 years later).

Rather, we are measuring them against the other players in their time. Yes, the tech and fitness is better today than in Jordan's era, but it's better for all of LeBron's contemporaries too who he had to beat and be better than. Same thing with the game rules changing -- it's easier for LBJ to score, but it's easier for his opponents to score too.

I'm pretty sure he meant to write, "The hell I don't! LISTEN, KID! I've been hearing that crap ever since I was at UCLA. I'm out there busting my buns every night! Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes!"

Have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

LMAO

I feel like I'm so used to famous people and athletes opening their mouth and saying something insane, that I was pretty surprised that this was well written and pretty well grounded.

Click on his substack, he writes about a lot more than basketball.

He has a wise elder statesman vibe. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/kareem-abdu...

He writes fiction as well, he cowrote some novels and comics based on the Mycroft Holmes character.

In general I have a rule of "ignore the opinions of professional athletes when they're talking about things other than sports". Kareem might be the only exception I've found so far.

There is a more general rule which is "ignore the opinions of people who are outside of their domains of expertise. even very smart people".

This applies to physicists, maybe especially so!

Many pro athletes have more than one domain of expertise, but not all. It takes a lot of time being the pro athlete!

I am seriously blown away at how thoughtful and articulate Kareem is. I had no idea. Even more exceptional that this human is also generationally talented in a whole different arena (sports).

Very partial list of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar movie/TV roles or cameos:

* Airplane * Fletch * Uncle Buck * A movie called "Matrix" that seems to be unrelated to "The Matrix" * The Critic (yes, the animated one) * Scrubs * Simpsons * Dave (recent TV show not movie) * Glass Onion

Also wrote at least on Episode of Veronica Mars.

This seems like a MUCH more fun sports retirement than just flying to golf destinations and chugging champagne... (not to mention his extensive philanthropy and personal writing)

I will always remember him in Bruce Lee's Game of Death

Kareem is a smart, thoughtful, introverted guy and a tremendous basketball player who, unfortunately, has sort of been ignored or forgotten. He's rarely listed in the NBA's "Mount Rushmore" or "top 5" of all time, never got a coaching gig, which he desperately sought, never did TV.

He is being quite gracious here with Lebron, but inside surely he's thinking, I had to go to college for 4 years! And nobody out here today is playing any defense! Give me 4 extra years against this competition and I'd have 10,000 more points! And I've got 6 titles to your 4, plus 3 more NCAA championships!

I don’t think we should really ascribe internal mental state to another person as respectable as Kareem that’s contrary to what he’s just told us.

I watched a fair amount of basicball in the 80s. Centers didn't get as much credit as some of the more visible positions. He was one of the best at that position, but positions seemed more formalized back then (I rarely remember centers dribbling up the court). Also Kareem was on a team with another superstar who overshadowed him.

The great basketball teams even with their stars required really solid support players in the other roles. They all were pretty good.

Many less 3 pointers (I think Kareem made 1 his entire career). The scoring record seems a lot like a career longevity thing, I don't think I've heard it talked about alot.

As he states in the article, Kareem was very competitive and fairly serious. Basket ball had some real characters (Rodman, Barkley) As a celtics fan, his skyhook shot he developed was really hard to defend against. Against the celtics McHale had a sort of half hook, but it wasn't like that. I remember with friends trying to do that skyhook on the court.

He seems to have that wisdom now that comes with age.

Why is there a common perception today that the NBA competition is weak? Given the time it has proliferated, now we have players who have been playing since they were 5. And they're absolute physical beasts - in size and athleticism.

Well, because even from commentators who justly praise LeBron, you find acknowledgments that, for instance,

"And then there's D'Angelo Russell, who, in short, is a valuable defensive player only when he isn't really tasked with guarding anybody. Last season, the Timberwolves were surprisingly effective defensively because they used Russell on the worst opposing perimeter player and allowed him to serve as a back-line communicator. That's a valuable role. The Lakers know this because that's how they use LeBron. Unless James is willing to take on a higher-effort defensive role with Russell easing his ball-handling burden, Russell is going to have to start playing some point-of-attack defense."

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/russell-westbrook-trade-g...

That’s regular season Lebron at 38, in games that matter he’s an excellent defender.

It is just the standard "kids these days" effect. Players today would absolutely steam roll the players of the past. Even if the rules and enforcement were done in the old school ways, the new players would adapt fine.

Basketball is popular world wide now, the talent pool is immensely larger than it was.

If anything this just makes Kareem all the more impressive that Lebron is only breaking this record now.

Combine this with his blocks, rebounds and 6 rings and it has never been for certain that Kareem was not better than both Jordan and Lebron.

I don't follow any sports and had no idea of anything about Kareem other than who he is. His interview in Conversations with Tyler really impressed me: https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/kareem-abdul-jab...

I fret much more over picking the right word in this sentence than in my record being broken.

I love this person.

Kareem is a class act.

He wrote a great book about the 761st, tank battalion manned by African Americans in World War 2. He's a very thoughtful person. Also, I wish Magic had run for mayor of Los Angeles. He'd win in a heartbeat and he is also done a lot for Los Angeles as a business person.

I still remember when KAJ's house burned down and he lost his entire collection of over a 1000 jazz records. Fans from all over the world started sending him records to restore the collection. Not many folks are liked in that way.

Love that reference to the Vision Quest scene. It's a great scene (embedded in a great movie!) and was very on-point for what he was saying.

As an aside, if you haven't seen Vision Quest, I can't recommend it highly enough.

I was on my high school wrestling team when Vision Quest was in theaters. That movie was religion to us wrestlers, mostly, obviously, because it was about high school wrestling. But the movie was much deeper, expressed by that one scene.

Kareem did leave out the best line from that scene, though - basically, the summary: "It ain't the six minutes. It's what happens in that six minutes."

(Trivia: Vision Quest was Madonna's first movie appearance. Not sure if that's a good thing or bad thing, though. LOL)

I’ve never seen the movie, but that excerpt reminded me of crying as I watched Kipchoge break the sub-2-hour marathon.

What a man! I've followed Kareem since his days winning NCAA titles at UCLA and championships at Milwaukee and with the Lakers. You could always see that he was driven to be the best he could be. Very few professional athletes have his skills, dedication, commitment, and social awareness. And, as his article so clearly shows, he is articulate, intelligent, compassionate, and, he writes very, very well. LeBron has many of these same qualities. Let's see how they hold up 40 years after he retires.

On a Kareem tangent, his cameo in Airplane! is hilarious.

I love that cameo ("My dad says you don't work hard enough on defense."[0]), and also found myself thinking about it in reading this excellent piece.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSi6iF9kVBs

I was gonna say. Kareem is immortalized in Airplane! He has already won at life.

The Glass Onion scene with him was my favorite part of the movie.

His Dave cameo too!

Just superbly written - I don't know how he could have written that piece better. I want learn more about his life. Any recommendations for biographies about Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Everytime I read something Kareem has written I am reminded how poised and intelligent he was/is. I wish more people in the public spotlight would aim for that.

I don't care about sports,

but this I will bookmark as an example of what it looks like when someone of exceptional talent also has exceptional grace.

Almost makes me care about the record!

I'm sorry, son, but you must have me confused with someone else. My name is Roger Murdock. I'm the co-pilot.

Wish the jacket pitch had been left out at the end, out of place

That was a great article.

And, right at the end was an ad, which kinda took away from it. I think the article would be better without the ad.

Great article, I felt like I was a part of the moment too even though I don't follow basketball.

Love that voice, great clear tone.

What a beautiful human being, and what a well written essay

What an eloquent writer. Anyone know the vaccine drama that he mentioned?

https://kareem.substack.com/p/why-lebron-is-wrong-about-hono...

Interesting, I would not expect such an engrossing and relatable writing style from an athlete.

LeBron has never struck me as being a great player. Of course, he is very good, but he is too much of a nice guy and doesn't have the unholy drive Jordan had. Jordan was mesmerizing. I also think Luka Doncic is going to leave LeBron in the dust, assuming Luka stays injury free and adopts a low-carb diet.

Lebron being the goat while also having a corny, 100% scandal free lifestyle is imo one of his crowning accomplishments. It is unbelievable that his greatness hasn’t gotten to his head ala Kyrie.

It did earlier in his career with like the decision and stuff, maybe getting criticized for stuff like that so early on made it easier to be normal for the rest of the his career. He had this kind of attention since he was in high school right?

Just a much more public version of so many of us having a big ego early in our careers and being humbled by those around us.

>LeBron has never struck me as being a great player

Perhaps this is a sign you should recalibrate your assessment criteria

LeBron has lost in the NBA finals five times. Jordan never lost in the NBA finals. When Jordan was playing in the NBA finals it was like he bent the universe to his will. LeBron doesn’t have that power. Also, Jordan won more championships. It really bugs me that anyone thinks LeBron is in the same league as Jordan.

I'm a big basketball fan (Celtics, so I'm hardly biased) and I have the exact opposite opinion. James has been worshipped as a ball player since at least high school; the fact that he appears to be as sane and grounded as he is puts him over Jordan. He elevates his teammates more than Jordan ever could.

I play a lot of ball and if we pretended I had nba level talent I would love to play with LBJ and hate playing with Jordan.

> He elevates his teammates more than Jordan ever could.

That makes zero sense. Jordan got everyone to buy into his obsessiveness and fully commit, getting TWO 3 peats. And it would have easily been 8 in a row if he didn't take time away after his dad was murdered.

I'm taking 3 Lakers over Lebron (Kareem, Magic, Kobe) if I'm building my team. And they are still after Jordan.

Lebron doesn't have that Jordan or Kobe mentality. He's also been in an era where he just bulldozes and travels on most plays. Exceptional athlete and player. But he's not the leader or competitor that Jordan was. Objectively based on his career - he just isn't.

Can you recall the Paxson, Kukoc and Kerr moments for Lebron? They don't exist.

The fact that you would hate playing with Jordan is what his teammates said too. Yet they wouldn't have traded it for anything and he lead them to 2 3 peats.

He made it hell for them and challenged them like they never would. And they stepped up when he called their number. There was no confusion on the role of every player.

Paxson, complete role player - “The stories are legendary about him on the practice floor,” Paxson said. “There was something unique about what was inside of him. The challenge was always there for him, and that’s a unique trait that you don’t see in athletes too often. The great ones seem to have it.”

Hard disagree but with the acknowledgement that it's entirely subjective.

I agree that JBJ doesn't have Jordan's competitiveness (or even Bryant's) but he's a smarter player. The proof to me is that at age 38 (!) he's still arguably a top 10 player. As his body slows down his intelligence is able to compensate. At the end of their careers neither Bryant or Jordan were anywhere near a top 10 player as their athleticism begin to wane.

Another point: Jordan's career assist average was 5.3, LBJ's is 7.3. He is able to make better use of his teammates than Jordan.

Jordan bulldozed and traveled plenty in his day. He also had the advantage of the illegal defense rules (countered somewhat by the revised hand-check rules). It's difficult to compare players from different eras because they grew up learning different skill sets but Jordan would not have lifted the current flawed Lakers as much as James.

Jordan never won in the 80s against real competition. He only won after the NBA expanded and watered down the talent.

Jordan might be the best 1-on-5 basketball player, but in the 80s and prior it was a team game and you had to play great as a team to win. In the 80s, Jordan was out in the first round.

> In the 80s, Jordan was out in the first round

He joined a horrendous team when he was drafted.

And your statement is just wrong:

89-90 - Lost E. Conf. Finals

88-89 - Lost E. Conf. Finals

87-88 - Lost E. Conf. Semis

Then we know what happened after that.

> 80s and prior it was a team game and you had to play great as a team to win

Have you watched the Spurs or Warriors win multiple championships in recent times? It's not like team ball (more like UCLA teams) vanished, it's just rarely the way to win in the NBA.

Also, Pistons played as a team, and then Jordan took over and ended that era.

Some teams win playing team ball. Some teams win with a few all time greats taking over. That's always been the case.

Just because you had more passing and slower scoring, doesn't mean those were "real competition" or better teams.

Jordan was the leader of the best team of all time. The 95-96 Bulls. Any talk about "team game" in 80s and before doesn't change that.

I also don't think many give the Bulls teams credit as playing as a team. Jordan was dominant but you won't find many teams EVER that played defense as a team any better than those Bulls teams. And even on offense, everyone clearly understood their role (Pippen, Kukoc, Paxson, Kerr, Kukoc). That's 100% team ball, it just doesn't look like a John Wooden UCLA team or Showtime Lakers.

You can play team ball without passing the ball around 20 times each play before shooting. And team ball doesn't mean every starter has to average 10-20 pts.

Ok, so Jordan got lucky a couple times to get out of the first round. Also 1990 is not the 80's. He was pretty happy to hit that shot against Cleveland in the first round though, which shows how much of a struggle it was to get out of the first round.

> He joined a horrendous team when he was drafted.

So did Isiah Thomas. But Isiah Thomas won a championship in the 80's. Jordan was not someone Isiah worried about, his competition was Magic and Bird. Isiah also beat North Carolina in college in his sophomore year to win the NCAA (against Worthy and Perkins, Jordan wasn't on that team)

> Also, Pistons played as a team, and then Jordan took over and ended that era.

Actually the expansion of the NBA ended that era, because the Pistons were not able to keep Mahorn. If they kept that team together, Bulls don't win in 1991. If Worthy is healthy in 1991, Bulls don't win either. If Michael Cooper stayed with the Lakers that year, Bulls definitely don't win in 1991.

> Jordan was the leader of the best team of all time. The 95-96 Bulls. Any talk about "team game" in 80s and before doesn't change that.

Every team that won in the early 80's would have beat the 95-96 Bulls EASILY. This includes the 76ers. Magic won it in his first year in the league. Bird won it in his second year. Andrew Toney is one of the most underrated players ever. Jordan didn't win until everybody else got old.

> Actually the expansion of the NBA ended that era, because the Pistons were not able to keep Mahorn. If they kept that team together, Bulls don't win in 1991.

Mahorn. An all defensive second team selection. One time. 6.9 ppg and 6 rebounds. I'm sure the best team ever would have been scared of him.

The Bulls SWEPT the Pistons in 90-91! Back to back champs just completely embarrassed. Laughable you think Mahorn would have changed anything!

> Jordan was not someone Isiah worried about, his competition was Magic and Bird.

Yes because until Scottie Pippen came along the Pistons, Celtics and Lakers had clearly better teams lol. You are trying to insinuate something that isn't there.

> Every team that won in the early 80's would have beat the 95-96 Bulls EASILY.

That's laughable and the pros that actually played would not back up your claim.

We're talking about THREE 7+ year first team all defensive players and the ability to lock down the paint and perimeter.

Pick any team. They are not better offensively and defensively complete as Jordan/Pippen/Rodman.

> Magic won it in his first year in the league. Bird won it in his second year. Andrew Toney is one of the most underrated players ever. Jordan didn't win until everybody else got old.

Again - look at what teams AND organizations they joined. Your statement has no merit. The Jordan led Bulls dominated the league in ways that none of the teams you mentioned did.

Both Bird and Magic have less championships. And also - almost NOBODY puts them ahead of Jordan as best player ever.

You can put several Lakers over Magic for best Laker. And Bill Russell over Bird. Your favorites aren't on the same level as Jordan.

> Jordan didn't win until everybody else got old.

More like the Bulls added a missing piece in Scottie Pippen. How many all stars did Bird and Magic have when they won?

In 1987 as one example, Celtics had 3. Lakers had 3. Bulls just 1.

They started winning because they had the best player ever and the organization added weapons. The Bulls were trash until after Jordan was drafted.

95-96 team is the best and most complete team ever assembled. You can disagree because it's your opinion. But collective opinion... it's widely known they are the best.

Anyone questioning Lebron’s drive should rewatch the 2016 NBA Finals. It was an all-time example of an underdog willing themselves to win, in any sport.

Jordan never lost in the NBA finals and he has more championships than LeBron. LeBron has lost the finals more often than he has won the finals. What kind of great player is that?

By this logic Robert Horry is better than Jordan. No one thinks Robert Horry is better than Jordan.

I'm sorry, but this is just a tremendously bad take.

Total points, first 4 years in NBA (including playoffs):

LeBron: 9339

Doncic: 7873

You're literally comparing a player who got 4 years in with one who is at his All Star break. Not sure what point you're attempting to make.

Luka is currently playing in his 5th year. He has 4 years behind him. Not the best comparison, but seems fair.

Luka isn’t the most explosive or athletic player out there. Once he loses a step his game will regress a lot.

LeBron was at another level of athleticism when he came out of HS. Him losing a step did not have as large of an impact. He basically has been able to have a “prime” that has lasted his whole career.

It is already clear to me that Luka is going to win more championships than LeBron. Luka is still 5-6 years away from hitting his peak as a player. He won’t even be 30 six years from now.

Championships are a team accomplishment. Sure, an individual player can have a larger impact in a sport like basketball since someone can play almost the entire game if necessary, but it’s not like singles tennis where one player determines the outcome.

Did you watch LeBron when he was younger, or just looking at stats?

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