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Comment by MauroIksem | Hacker News Reader

Game devs in the US are paid shit too. Average is around 90k..i can't imagine it's that much worse in Japan.

90k isn't terrible for a creative position. The crunch makes it not worth it though.

If you think 90k is shit, you should really consider not living in NYC, LA, of SF. 90k in most non metropolis cities is upper middle class.

Most people that live in a HCOL city cannot just move to a LCOL city and get paid the same - you think they've never considered that?

The point of using the national average is that we can compare it to other careers. If we compare game devs to other software development positions they get paid significantly less on average. The BLS puts software engineers at an average of $109k for 2021 (couldn't find 2022 stats, not sure if they exist yet?)[1]. That means game devs make 20+% less on average compared to their non-game counterparts.

1: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/Computer-and-Information-Technology/...

Well what would you expect? The work is significantly simpler, and the conditions are much better. So… wait. That’s not quite right. Hmmm.

Try again. What would you expect? The value to the employer is significantly lower because each developers contribution is… No wait.

Tell me again how this capitalism thing works because I get confused?

Supply impacts wages. More people want to be game devs per open position than want to be non-game devs per open position.

Right, right. So it’s just supply and demand. So here in Australia where the number of surgeon positions are constrained by a centralised body, supply outstrips demand quite a bit. Let me google the old market at work!

Googling… Hmmm…

Are you sure this thing is working?

Surgeons and game devs are not comparable. There's no free market in medicine in most countries as the doctors have formed their own cartel/union which decides who gets to be let in and under which conditions and without membership to that tribe you cannot practice.

So why doesn’t every group with valuable skills form similar cartels? Why isn’t there some “game dev” certification body to achieve the same?

Now I understand what this Chartered Professional Engineer thing is all about! It’s a license to print money by controlling supply! I want in!

Because SW devs never wanted to unionize in any way as they say they'll get held back by unions and they'll make more compensation without them.

And no, most chartered engineers do not really print money, some making even less than SW devs.

In my insignificant EU country, nearly every profession has it's own labor union, and guess what, the IT union is one of the weakest, seeing some of the worst possible contract terms and work conditions for a skilled profession, while the metal workers union being one of the strongest, having some of the best perks, rights, working conditions and mandatory wage increases in the country.

It’s not a dirty leftist union, it’s a certification body to ensure the high ethical and professional standards of our members!

We can have cool ceremonies! Stuff to hang on your wall! A club house!

Well, it's hard to get in, which is the whole point.

> are constrained by a centralised body

> supply outstrips demand quite a bit

How does that follow? It is constrained therefore supply is artifically lowered. No matter the demand, no one can supply more doctors than the body permits, therefore the price for each is quite high.

Not demand for the services, that’s high. Supply of talented humans for the role is much much greater than the positions available. So based on the aforementioned logic; lots of competition for limited spots should reduce the wages paid right?

The medical licensing body is making the market in surgeons. Their interest is in keeping wages high and supply low. In fact, “making the market” is not even the right analogy - the licensing body is the sole supplier of surgeons.

Nobody is making the market in game devs, so market wages prevail. Gaming happens to be the world’s most popular form of entertainment so it’s not surprising that more people want to be game devs than say write ERP software.

There are also way fewer game dev jobs than there are general dev jobs. This isn’t rocket science.

Yes, that is why residents are paid pennies. But once you are fully qualified surgeon, your are in the artificially limited pool of people who can operate on patients. Which leads to high salaries for surgeons.

Your pay is defined by your colleagues and potential colleagues, and unrelated to the value you provide

Kyoto isn't really a LCOL area either.

yeah but you get to live in Kyoto

And deal with one of the most tourist-packed cities in the world with some awful commutes.

Buses just aren’t worth riding when tourism is high (you’ll be waiting forever with dozens in line ahead of you and then stuck in traffic) and the train routes aren’t nearly as convenient as a lot of other Japanese cities.

$90k is shit even in low cost of living cities [in the US]. A nice car and insurance is $15k/year. Groceries have doubled or tripled in cost.

If you mean, like, Bangkok, then sure.

"Shit" is an overstatement. If a nice car and insurance is 15k, rent is 1500 bucks a month (so 18k a year), and groceries are 10k a year (and that's double the average), that's a total of 43k a year. Add in health insurance for what, 5k a year (if you're making 90k, insurance shouldn't be more than 400 bucks a month)? 90k yearly is ~67k a year after federal taxes. After all of the necessary expenses, you're left with 17k left over. Student loan payments probably cut into that, but that's still a significant sum of money. This is especially true if you can cut that rent down, or don't drive a super nice car, or have a smaller insurance payment through your workplace, etc.

That $17k surplus assumes that this person will be doing nothing remotely fun with their lives. Add even a modest amount of travel, movies, reataurants, bars, etc., and that money disappears quickly.

I'm not saying it's exceptional pay, but if you're even considering leisure travel you're not getting "shit pay."

That's only 17k net a year left over before savings, travel, or restaurants.

Going out to eat almost anywhere decent is a hundred bucks these days.

$1500 a month is not a reasonable assumption for monthly housing overhead even in a low CoL location. Also mortgage interest rates are much higher now.

If 1,400 a month for non-necessities isn't considered good, I struggle to see what a reasonable definition of "good" is.

1,500 is perfectly reasonable for a low cost of living area. I currently pay 1,800 a month (and that includes electric, which also powers my heat) in a state that most consider to be one of the highest costs of living in the US. For that amount of money, I could be renting a standalone house in much of the country.

I also think that your assertion of going out to eat costing 100 bucks is inaccurate. Many decent restaurants have entrées in the 18-25 dollar range. Add in a beer and an appetizer, plus a 30% tip, and you still only hit 65 dollars (assuming the app/entree cost 40 bucks combined and the beer costs 10, which is a high estimate).

All of this also assumes that you drive a nice car, a luxury that most wouldn't consider a necessity. The 15k number assumes 1250 combined for car payments and insurance, a number which many would consider much too high.

Is it the most glamorous life? No. But calling it "shit pay" is a massive overreach. If you can afford a solid car, your own place, all the necessities, and still have 1400 bucks to play with, I would consider that a pretty solid life. Certainly above "shit."

$100 for one person eating out?? I feel like even at a nice sit down place in San Francisco when I visited late last year I was paying much less than that.

In low cost of living / mid cost of living (LCOL/MCOL) areas you can definitely eat out for two at a decent place for less than that. Pricing out for two at my favorite local Italian place in San Antonio, here's the bill:

$15 - spaghetti with homemade meat sauce

$16 - penne arrabiatta

$20 - wine

Pad 28% for tax and tip and you come out to ~$65.

On San Antonio Zillow, I'm finding almost 200 results for 2 bedrooms at $1200 or less per month.

I don't think San Antonio is even the lowest LCOL location you could find, by far. Even in Texas, not looking outside the state, El Paso's way cheaper, maybe Corpus Christi.

I think people often overestimate how much it costs to live quite well in a LCOL area.

the median income in the US is ~35k. 90k in a low cost of living city is a ton. Nationally 90k put you almost into the top 20%.

Median household income in the US is 70k. 90k income for an individual isn't shit for any city let alone lower cost ones.

An entry level game developer (1-3 years of experience) earns an average salary of ¥8,386,388. On the other end, a senior level game developer (8+ years of experience) earns an average salary of ¥14,449,841.

Which is 90 to 160 Canadian

This seems absurdly high. I barely see people making those kinds of salaries in large foreign companies.

Anecdotally, my friend earned something like 5M yen and was working 10-12 hour days including Saturday at entry/mid level.

¥8M is common now and I know plenty of people with salaries going for over ¥10M, but very few go over ¥20M and even less for ¥30M.

I would suggest you to re-evaluate your market opportunities if you are an Engineer getting paid ¥5M in Japan.

You must be living in a different world. I know exactly zero people with a salary over 20M, other than maybe the CIO, and probably because he migrated from the US and kept whatever compensation they gave him there (plus the expat bonus).

My starting salary was 2.1M yen in Japan, and until my current position never breached 5.5M

You might be grossly underpaid depending on your current skillsets and geographic location. What kind of work are you doing now? also, how many years have you been working? If you are in Tokyo and you are Senior, you should be above ¥8M at least.

Happy to discuss more over chat or something similar. Let me know if you want to compare notes.

Not at Japanese companies, which is nearly all game developers. The high end of the market at Japanese companies for staff level engineers with 8+ years of experience is 12-14M. 4-5M for entry level is not unusual

https://www.salaryexpert.com/salary/job/game-developer/japan....

I think you've prematurely dropped-the-mic. Linking a URL doesn't legitimize your claim.

I've worked extensively with the best salary datasets available. Even then, you shouldn't believe everything you read. Even when the data is good, it's not reality. I fail to believe SalaryExperts are anywhere near experts in this case when there is so many odd points on that page.

For starters, it's kind of weird to fix game dev salaries on Tokyo when the Kyoto Triangle is a thing. I have on-the-ground context on Japan because I can see the Nintendo office from my backyard. People who aren't familiar with Japan don't realize that Tokyo city doesn't even exist or at least stopped existing over a century ago. That's just a litmus test as to why you trust the anecdotal evidence of people who actually live and work in Japan over a cherrypicked website from Google search for "game dev salary Japan".

That data is pure fantasy.

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