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Comment by mgliwka | Hacker News Reader

Do you have an example for Software Engineer being protected in Europe? I haven’t encountered this and did not find any references.

For example in Germany, the German title „Ingenieur“ is protected, but carrying the title Software Engineer is fine.

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The English name "Software Engineer" isn't protected in German speaking countries, but their German equivalents are:

- The German equivalent would be "Diplom-Informatiker" (which roughly translates to "certified computer scientist"), which you're awarded after completing a graduate degree/MSc in Computer Science.

- In Austria you'd be awared a "Diplom-Ingeneur" instead, so a "Diplom-Ingeneuer in Informatik/Software-Entwicklung" would be a "Certified Computer/SW Engineer".

In France (and Italy afaict), the "engineer" title is protected. You can have the function but won't have the title of you're not from a sanctioned engineering school.

That being said, nobody cares about it in CS expect for government and very large companies which will use it against you in salary negotiation.

> You can have the function but won't have the title of you're not from a sanctioned engineering school.

My understanding was that is was true throughout the French world (so French speaking Canada does this as well)? And that the curriculum for Engineers was more rigorous than other disciplines (there's a strong emphasis on math, you have to do some economics and so on)?

At least in French speaking Canada, the curriculum for software engineers is not really anymore rigorous than the curriculum for CS (of course, depending on your university). Even in math, some math classes are less rigorous or watered down for engineering, while some are taken by engineers but not necessary for CS students.

My understanding was the curriculum had more classes (a year longer) and less flexibility for course selection (you can't major in CS and get a minor in history for instance). Your electives are going to be engineering classes.

In the French Canadian system you generally don't do major/minor, you study only one field. It's relatively rare to do it another way. Electives are the same that way but you have 5-6 engineering-only societal classes (economics, ethics, etc...)

In Italy Software/Computer Engineer (Ingegnere informatico) is indeed protected, people usually refer to themselves as software developer or programmer unless they hold an engineering degree. The story is somewhat different when it comes to networking where it seems no one goes without the title. As long as you can prove you know your deal it isn't a deal breaker for private companies.

Ditto for Austria (see "Please note" section on [0])

[0] https://www.bmbwf.gv.at/en/Topics/Higher-education---univers...

The German example was already given by others. Portugal as well.

I think Canada too

Just the term 'engineer' is protected in parts of Canada, and it's at a provincial level if I remember properly. The 'software' part has nothing to do with it. That said, the term is protected really weirdly. The standard is 'would a reasonable person think you can provide professional engineering services'. So seeing software engineers call themselves such is very common. I suspect the lax attitude here is because nobody would reasonably expect a software engineer to sign off on the structural integrity of a building.

In Ontario, the PEO (board that manages these things) hasn't gone after software engineers often. I don't think I've ever heard of a prosecution in general, and may people call themselves XYZ engineer without having the P. Eng designation. They tend to prosecute civil, and industrial engineers, and building related engineers more since civil engineering and a Civil Engineer have very different roles. Even then, you have to be pretty flagrantly disregarding the regulations to make yourself a target.

The only people who'd given me a hard time over the job title 'software engineer' were engineering students during my undergraduate degree.

To elaborate, the distinction is professional engineering. SO not just structural integrity of a building. Under the Professional Engineering Act is:

>“practice of professional engineering” means any act of planning, designing, composing, evaluating, advising, reporting, directing or supervising that requires the application of engineering principles and concerns the safeguarding of life, health, property, economic interests, the public welfare or the environment, or the managing of any such act; (“exercice de la profession d’ingénieur”)

In principle, there's certainly a good justification for the protection of the title, but the reality is much different. There's probably a case for regulators to actually figure out what meaningful licensure would mean for Software Engineers or companies but that'll never happen. There was a time where I thought 'Software Engineer' was a relatively uncommon title due to this case, but it appears Ontario employers have become much more lax about this.

And while the PEO hasn't gone after individual engineers, Alberta's regulator has taken up the case, for some reason: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/technology/article-...

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. Better explanation than I could manage before my coffee kicked in.

"PEO considers non-licensed use of “Software Engineer” to be a violation of our Act."

https://www.peo.on.ca/public-protection/complaints-and-illeg...

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