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Comment by samwillis | Hacker News Reader

Seems to be down, mirror here: https://web.archive.org/web/20220929080424/https://shoppress...

In Europe (well worldwide) there is another "Philips" like screw head called Pozidriv [0], it has a small engraved cross 45deg to the main recess on the screw head. The drivers have flutes in the head identifying them. They are much better than Philips as they are designed to not ride out until under a high enough torque where the screw could be damaged.

In the UK they are the dominant product in hardware stores.

0: https://shop4fasteners.co.uk/blog/pozidriv-vs-phillips/

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Until I heard about Robertson in Canada I had assumed that commodity items like screws and screwdrivers were truly international. Is Pozidriv really not common in the US?

Pozidriv is very uncommon in the US.

Philips (00, 0, and 2) are by far the most common screw heads here for most people. (Pretty much every household will have these for changing batteries, assembling furniture, doing minor repairs...) Slotted screw heads used to be ubiquitous, and the screwdrivers still are, though mostly for use as pry bars. You'll see some socket-head hex-drive stuff, in a mix of metric and fractional inch drives (which can inform you on how US-centric the design and manufacture of the product was), and maybe some Torx (especially in electronics). I've only seen Robertson in drywall and decking screws at the hardware store, and I haven't yet seen them used in someone's home.

Generally in the US people who actually care about their fasteners will use Torx.

Yep. In my house, every thing I work on or replace gets replaced with Torx screws. Slotted have their place, I have no idea how or why Phillips ever got popular.

Limitations of screw-making technology and metallurgy at the time, Phillips is quite an old standard, patented in 1932 (although there was a similar British patent 60 years earlier).

Or people who need to drive in a lot of fasteners. Philips is a pain even with an impact driver/screw gun, the bit cannot hold the fastener unlike Torx/Robertson.

Many electrical components have a screw that takes a Phillips or Robertson.

For those who don't know: the head of the screw will literally accept a slotted, Phillips, or Robertson driver.

Milwaukee (popular among electricians) now makes a screwdriver that's the union of those shapes that they call an ECX screwdriver.

I bought a Klein version of that screwdriver and it’s a joy to use when wiring up receptacles.

I'm not sure if you mean the union or intersection?

I searched for ECX and it returns images of multi-bit kits. Could you link a photo of what you're referring to?

Several of the combo bit types are covered here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4WsTfJ-YwbM (start around 2m59s, but there’s a lot of good content there)

Search "ECX screw" on Google images, it has some pictures of the bits and the screws

Thanks! That driver bit is crazy.

https://toolguyd.com/milwaukee-ecx-screwdriver-bits/

It’s actually quite nice if you do electrical. Recommended (also a “demo driver” whilst you’re at it).

> Pozidriv is very uncommon in the US.

IKEA use them. Lots of people get disposable Pozi drivers from them and probably don't even realize they're different.

Drywall screws are Philips, not Robertson. The cam-out feature is used to prevent over-penetration, which badly weakens the drywall. These bits are used; they precisely dimple the paperboard and prevent the gypsum from being crushed.

https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Positioning-Screwdriver-Dryw...

I do have a bunch of what look like drywall screws with Robertson heads, but I am certain that they are not intended for use with drywall.

Yeah, it's super uncommon. Torx is what you find on most fasteners that aren't Phipps or slotted. I've found Pozi in two applications in my house:

1) An IKEA bed requires it for some screws that self-tap into sheet metal with a machine screw thread. Running them in with Philips is hopeless. Does IKEA supply the required driver? Of course not.

2) Blum cup hinges use Pozi for the adjustment screws. By extension, if you want an actual Pozi screw driver, find a local joint that supplies Blum to cabinet shops.

There are at least a few other cruciform drives out there that you'll rarely encounter:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

IKEA uses them extensively in all of their hardware. If you find yourself, say, assembling a whole kitchen worth of IKEA cabinets it’s worth picking up a few bits.

Even if you're only assembling one IKEA thing every now and then it's still worth picking up. Makes building anything from there less stressful, especially those cam screws. I bought a driver on Amazon.

Pozidrives are pretty common in bigger US bit sets, even cheap ones.

Example: a $10 bit set: https://www.harborfreight.com/security-bit-set-with-case-100... has Pozi #0, #1, #2 (with spares) and #3

the bits and drivers are extremely common. pozi head screws are almost nonexistent in US. unless you consider IKEA sold in US to be a US product

I've never seen either the screws or the bits in any of the many bit sets I have owned, nor have I ever heard of them until today.

That's interesting. Thinking back over thirty-plus years of buying various bits for hand-held and electric screwdrivers (my dad was using battery powered Makitas before I graduated high school in 1984), I can't remember the last set that I bought which didn't include Pozidrive.

And so far as I know, I've never actually encountered anything that used Pozidrive, so I've always thought it was a huge waste that they were always included.

TIL.

In my experience torx is a lot better than pozidrive.

The Ikea FIXA hand tool set includes a Pozidrive bit. It's a couple bucks, if you're buying IKEA furniture its worth picking up that toolkit. Ikea uses it on most of their furniture, not just beds.

Allen ("hex") is much more common than Torx in the US. Most IKEA furniture (here) uses hex bolts.

> Torx is what you find on most fasteners that aren't Phipps or slotted.

Torx is also FAR better than Pozidriv. Pz cams out very easily. Once Tx is slotted properly it just won't slip. I'm very happy that Torx is getting more traction here, because I'm fed up with stripped Pozidriv screws.

> An IKEA bed requires it for some screws that self-tap into sheet metal with a machine screw thread. Running them in with Philips is hopeless. Does IKEA supply the required driver? Of course not.

Interestingly, I bought some lamps in (Dutch) Ikea that required Torx and they did add a bit for those. In every lamp package, so now I have 8.

Torx, I was told, came about because robots can insert them more easily (hold them more easily?).

Torx danger is they can be over ... torqued. Sometimes the driver slipping out of the slot is telling you that you're turning too hard. ;-)

Modern drills have better clutches and don't need cam out to not over torque screws. Cam out is a feature from the 1930s and should be left behind now that we have better

Not robots, tools with torque limits.

I get the bits a lot in multi-bit sets, but the fasteners themselves are very rare.

I rarely encounter it, but I have a PZ1 driver in my kit at all times because NorComp D-sub hoods use it for the cable clamp bar screws.

Other than that I can't say I've found PZ in recent memory.

Pozidrive super uncommon in the US.

Besides the already-mentioned Ikea, the other most common application in the US (best guess) is Ski Bindings, probably because most bindings in the US come from European Brands.

How is this getting multiply downvoted??? If it's factually incorrect please let me know.

Robertson is amazing but I wish my Home Depot also sold Torx. Our deck and construction screws are all Robertson.

Robertson is an upgrade from Phillips for sure, but it's not even in the same league as Torx. I've laid down many decks using Robertson and Torx. Robertson bits or heads strip fairly easy. I've used the same Torx bit on multiple decks, where I'd probably go through 5-10 Robertson bits per deck.

I think the only thing Robertson really has over Torx is the 60 or so years it preexisted the other. Probably couldn’t mass manufacture the Torx shape in the 1800s.

But these days I’m not sure if Robertson has any advantages.

> In Europe (well worldwide) there is another "Philips" like screw head called Pozidriv

Just reminds me this small thread[1] on Twitter 3 month ago:

- @/FreeCADNews: #FreeCAD #Showcase Philips-head screwdriver bit by #jimmihenry

- @/_steve_shockley: That's a Pozidriv bit. It's handy for Ikea furniture and ruining the heads of Phillips screws.

- /me: Good catch (me linking [0])

- @/_steve_shockley: Don't even get me started on Reed & Prince.

[0] https://shop4fasteners.co.uk/blog/pozidriv-vs-phillips/

[1] https://twitter.com/_steve_shockley/status/15883347753282969...

>Seems to be down, mirror here: ...

Thanks for posting the archive.org link. The site _was_ fast when I posted this earlier today. I suppose they don't receive much traffic, and host their site on a non-scaling potato server.

i don't know about "dominant" - most of the screws i come across in the uk, for example in computers and other hardware, are phillips.

not saying pozidrive aren't better

I think it's screws at Ikea, B&Q, Wickes etc where you'll find Pozidrive is dominant.

The screws in computers don't have to deal with much so "Philips" is indicated. They are a few mm long and hold tin plate sheets together or hds in the case etc.

You can have say 120mm+ long woodscrews - No 10 with cruel cutting points and fancy low friction finishes. These beasts need a lot of driving and the extra hold that the additional cross gives really helps. My drill driver can easily wrench your wrist if you are not careful.

Beyond that you have things like concrete screws - 150mm long, 10mm wide. Drill a pilot hole first 8mm? wide and off you go. These use a hex head. I also have some whopper fasteners for things like sleepers that drive into wood with a hex head and need a shit load of torque. You soon learn to use your leg as a stop for things like that.

Torx n Pozi is everywhere in the UK - more so than Philips. Have a look in B&Q, Screwfix et al sometime!

I own an IT company and do quite a lot of DiY. I think Pozi is dominant in the UK for cross-headed screws.

Flat head screws had no problem with long screws in the 1800s when a human drove them in by hand. However with early automation in the 1930s there was an overtorque problem and so fasteners that couldn't handle the torque were developed.

Note that the blacksmith made screw drivers of the 1800s were hollow ground, or at least parallel. If you have a cheap modern flathead screwdriver it is probably tapered the wrong way and can't deliver enough torque. That is the fault of your screwdriver though, not the screw design.

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