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The other Phillips head screwdriver

shoppress.dormanproducts.com

81 pointsturtlegrids86 comments

Seems to be down, mirror here: https://web.archive.org/web/20220929080424/https://shoppress...

In Europe (well worldwide) there is another "Philips" like screw head called Pozidriv [0], it has a small engraved cross 45deg to the main recess on the screw head. The drivers have flutes in the head identifying them. They are much better than Philips as they are designed to not ride out until under a high enough torque where the screw could be damaged.

In the UK they are the dominant product in hardware stores.

0: https://shop4fasteners.co.uk/blog/pozidriv-vs-phillips/

Until I heard about Robertson in Canada I had assumed that commodity items like screws and screwdrivers were truly international. Is Pozidriv really not common in the US?

Pozidriv is very uncommon in the US.

Philips (00, 0, and 2) are by far the most common screw heads here for most people. (Pretty much every household will have these for changing batteries, assembling furniture, doing minor repairs...) Slotted screw heads used to be ubiquitous, and the screwdrivers still are, though mostly for use as pry bars. You'll see some socket-head hex-drive stuff, in a mix of metric and fractional inch drives (which can inform you on how US-centric the design and manufacture of the product was), and maybe some Torx (especially in electronics). I've only seen Robertson in drywall and decking screws at the hardware store, and I haven't yet seen them used in someone's home.

Generally in the US people who actually care about their fasteners will use Torx.

Yep. In my house, every thing I work on or replace gets replaced with Torx screws. Slotted have their place, I have no idea how or why Phillips ever got popular.

Limitations of screw-making technology and metallurgy at the time, Phillips is quite an old standard, patented in 1932 (although there was a similar British patent 60 years earlier).

Or people who need to drive in a lot of fasteners. Philips is a pain even with an impact driver/screw gun, the bit cannot hold the fastener unlike Torx/Robertson.

Many electrical components have a screw that takes a Phillips or Robertson.

For those who don't know: the head of the screw will literally accept a slotted, Phillips, or Robertson driver.

Milwaukee (popular among electricians) now makes a screwdriver that's the union of those shapes that they call an ECX screwdriver.

I bought a Klein version of that screwdriver and it’s a joy to use when wiring up receptacles.

I'm not sure if you mean the union or intersection?

I searched for ECX and it returns images of multi-bit kits. Could you link a photo of what you're referring to?

Several of the combo bit types are covered here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4WsTfJ-YwbM (start around 2m59s, but there’s a lot of good content there)

Search "ECX screw" on Google images, it has some pictures of the bits and the screws

Thanks! That driver bit is crazy.

https://toolguyd.com/milwaukee-ecx-screwdriver-bits/

It’s actually quite nice if you do electrical. Recommended (also a “demo driver” whilst you’re at it).

> Pozidriv is very uncommon in the US.

IKEA use them. Lots of people get disposable Pozi drivers from them and probably don't even realize they're different.

Drywall screws are Philips, not Robertson. The cam-out feature is used to prevent over-penetration, which badly weakens the drywall. These bits are used; they precisely dimple the paperboard and prevent the gypsum from being crushed.

https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Positioning-Screwdriver-Dryw...

I do have a bunch of what look like drywall screws with Robertson heads, but I am certain that they are not intended for use with drywall.

Yeah, it's super uncommon. Torx is what you find on most fasteners that aren't Phipps or slotted. I've found Pozi in two applications in my house:

1) An IKEA bed requires it for some screws that self-tap into sheet metal with a machine screw thread. Running them in with Philips is hopeless. Does IKEA supply the required driver? Of course not.

2) Blum cup hinges use Pozi for the adjustment screws. By extension, if you want an actual Pozi screw driver, find a local joint that supplies Blum to cabinet shops.

There are at least a few other cruciform drives out there that you'll rarely encounter:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives

IKEA uses them extensively in all of their hardware. If you find yourself, say, assembling a whole kitchen worth of IKEA cabinets it’s worth picking up a few bits.

Even if you're only assembling one IKEA thing every now and then it's still worth picking up. Makes building anything from there less stressful, especially those cam screws. I bought a driver on Amazon.

Pozidrives are pretty common in bigger US bit sets, even cheap ones.

Example: a $10 bit set: https://www.harborfreight.com/security-bit-set-with-case-100... has Pozi #0, #1, #2 (with spares) and #3

the bits and drivers are extremely common. pozi head screws are almost nonexistent in US. unless you consider IKEA sold in US to be a US product

I've never seen either the screws or the bits in any of the many bit sets I have owned, nor have I ever heard of them until today.

That's interesting. Thinking back over thirty-plus years of buying various bits for hand-held and electric screwdrivers (my dad was using battery powered Makitas before I graduated high school in 1984), I can't remember the last set that I bought which didn't include Pozidrive.

And so far as I know, I've never actually encountered anything that used Pozidrive, so I've always thought it was a huge waste that they were always included.

TIL.

In my experience torx is a lot better than pozidrive.

The Ikea FIXA hand tool set includes a Pozidrive bit. It's a couple bucks, if you're buying IKEA furniture its worth picking up that toolkit. Ikea uses it on most of their furniture, not just beds.

Allen ("hex") is much more common than Torx in the US. Most IKEA furniture (here) uses hex bolts.

> Torx is what you find on most fasteners that aren't Phipps or slotted.

Torx is also FAR better than Pozidriv. Pz cams out very easily. Once Tx is slotted properly it just won't slip. I'm very happy that Torx is getting more traction here, because I'm fed up with stripped Pozidriv screws.

> An IKEA bed requires it for some screws that self-tap into sheet metal with a machine screw thread. Running them in with Philips is hopeless. Does IKEA supply the required driver? Of course not.

Interestingly, I bought some lamps in (Dutch) Ikea that required Torx and they did add a bit for those. In every lamp package, so now I have 8.

Torx, I was told, came about because robots can insert them more easily (hold them more easily?).

Torx danger is they can be over ... torqued. Sometimes the driver slipping out of the slot is telling you that you're turning too hard. ;-)

Modern drills have better clutches and don't need cam out to not over torque screws. Cam out is a feature from the 1930s and should be left behind now that we have better

Not robots, tools with torque limits.

I get the bits a lot in multi-bit sets, but the fasteners themselves are very rare.

I rarely encounter it, but I have a PZ1 driver in my kit at all times because NorComp D-sub hoods use it for the cable clamp bar screws.

Other than that I can't say I've found PZ in recent memory.

Pozidrive super uncommon in the US.

Besides the already-mentioned Ikea, the other most common application in the US (best guess) is Ski Bindings, probably because most bindings in the US come from European Brands.

How is this getting multiply downvoted??? If it's factually incorrect please let me know.

Robertson is amazing but I wish my Home Depot also sold Torx. Our deck and construction screws are all Robertson.

Robertson is an upgrade from Phillips for sure, but it's not even in the same league as Torx. I've laid down many decks using Robertson and Torx. Robertson bits or heads strip fairly easy. I've used the same Torx bit on multiple decks, where I'd probably go through 5-10 Robertson bits per deck.

I think the only thing Robertson really has over Torx is the 60 or so years it preexisted the other. Probably couldn’t mass manufacture the Torx shape in the 1800s.

But these days I’m not sure if Robertson has any advantages.

i don't know about "dominant" - most of the screws i come across in the uk, for example in computers and other hardware, are phillips.

not saying pozidrive aren't better

I think it's screws at Ikea, B&Q, Wickes etc where you'll find Pozidrive is dominant.

The screws in computers don't have to deal with much so "Philips" is indicated. They are a few mm long and hold tin plate sheets together or hds in the case etc.

You can have say 120mm+ long woodscrews - No 10 with cruel cutting points and fancy low friction finishes. These beasts need a lot of driving and the extra hold that the additional cross gives really helps. My drill driver can easily wrench your wrist if you are not careful.

Beyond that you have things like concrete screws - 150mm long, 10mm wide. Drill a pilot hole first 8mm? wide and off you go. These use a hex head. I also have some whopper fasteners for things like sleepers that drive into wood with a hex head and need a shit load of torque. You soon learn to use your leg as a stop for things like that.

Torx n Pozi is everywhere in the UK - more so than Philips. Have a look in B&Q, Screwfix et al sometime!

I own an IT company and do quite a lot of DiY. I think Pozi is dominant in the UK for cross-headed screws.

Flat head screws had no problem with long screws in the 1800s when a human drove them in by hand. However with early automation in the 1930s there was an overtorque problem and so fasteners that couldn't handle the torque were developed.

Note that the blacksmith made screw drivers of the 1800s were hollow ground, or at least parallel. If you have a cheap modern flathead screwdriver it is probably tapered the wrong way and can't deliver enough torque. That is the fault of your screwdriver though, not the screw design.

>Seems to be down, mirror here: ...

Thanks for posting the archive.org link. The site _was_ fast when I posted this earlier today. I suppose they don't receive much traffic, and host their site on a non-scaling potato server.

> In Europe (well worldwide) there is another "Philips" like screw head called Pozidriv

Just reminds me this small thread[1] on Twitter 3 month ago:

- @/FreeCADNews: #FreeCAD #Showcase Philips-head screwdriver bit by #jimmihenry

- @/_steve_shockley: That's a Pozidriv bit. It's handy for Ikea furniture and ruining the heads of Phillips screws.

- /me: Good catch (me linking [0])

- @/_steve_shockley: Don't even get me started on Reed & Prince.

[0] https://shop4fasteners.co.uk/blog/pozidriv-vs-phillips/

[1] https://twitter.com/_steve_shockley/status/15883347753282969...

And there is even a third!

The article talks about "normal" versus JIS Phillips drives. But "normal" actually comes in two different flavors: US (ANSI) and German (DIN/later ISO). ISO Phillips drivers work perfectly on ISO Phillips heads and quite well on JIS or ANSI Phillips heads. ANSI Phillips drivers work perfectly on ANSI Phillips heads and noticeably worse on JIS or ISO Phillips heads.

You probably have not experienced this if your Phillips screwdrivers were not made in USA, as virtually every manufacturer outside the US used or uses the JIS, DIN, or ISO profile for their tools, and those work tolerably on all Phillips type screws. (Of course JIS is palpably best on JIS, which is the subject of the article.) But if you have older or newer made in USA tools (especially Pratt-Read, who recently closed down) or fasteners (which probably had to come from some industrial type place), you may have noticed that Phillips is even more crap than expected. Or you might have noticed that the "foreigners" are better at tools if you compared against a good German or Japanese screwdriver.

Not really! It's just that there are three kinds of Phillips profile. It's awful. Death to Phillips, death to Pozidriv (too easy to confuse and damage here in the US), death to anything that looks like Phillips. Long live Robertson, Hex, Torx, and anything with ball end drivers available!

What do you think of Milwaukee's ECX?

Those are the same as or at least closely related to quadrex, xeno, or "terminal" (as in "wiring terminal") bits. I have them in two sizes, both bits and insulated handles. I find I never use them as just sticking a #1 Robertson in there (despite my being American) does everything I could want.

I never realized how bad Phillips was until I started renovating a home this year. They are truly the worst of all the options. They need to be phased out completely. Square is better in every way. A core problem with Phillips is not only that the cross is simply not the best shape to hold torque, which it's not, but that there is no consistency between the crosses themselves. With square, you only have to worry about size. With Phillips, you have to pay attention to the angles and character of the cross, in addition to size. One Phillips might be deeper or skinnier than another that looks the same. Matching the perfect driver to a screw is difficult in general, and near impossible by eye.

Phillips is great when you’re screwing in an area you can’t see. The bit slips in nicely and you don’t have to think about size. But yeah Robertsons are nice in many other instances.

> The bit slips in nicely

As someone with very little recent experience with these types, could you elaborate on what you mean by this, at least compared to the Robertson screw?

Coming at the screw from an angle or not being able to see orientation. The bit just “falls in” nicely when you can’t see compared to other shapes.

With Robertson, the screw will stay on the driver so you don't need to see it to find it.

Can do that with any head really. But imagine the screw is there already. And you don’t know the size. Phillips is probably better here. Not a common use case for most people.

I've never been able to get a Phillips screw to stay on a Phillips screwdriver. If you do get it to stay, a butterfly flying by would knock it off.

Interesting that the USA doesn't seem to use Pozi.

In Australia and NZ -

Pozi are by far the most common in building/construction (although everyone refers them as Phillips colloquially) with square drive there after. Cheap/poorly made hardware from China will at times ship with Phillips instead of Pozi (or JIS), you can always tell because Philip screwdrivers are easy to strip in comparison and require slightly more talk to tighten I think.

With machined screws such as those used on electronics the most common for commercial/industrial would probably be Torx, followed by Pozi. In cheap consumer gear it's probably a mix of Phillips and Pozi.

Really no one should be using Phillips in this day and age, it's horribly dated - easy to strip and low torque.

I'm sure it's not a factor in their general popularity, but from an aesthetic point of view I think Pozidriv is inferior to Philips; pozidriv fastener heads look messy with those 45 degree tickmarks. But both are inferior to Robertson/Square. Those look the most neat and trim of any screw head.

AFAIK JIS is now becoming obsolete, we have DIN 5260/ISO 8764-1 :

https://rtstools.com/jis-vs-phillips-screwdrivers-and-where-...

If you ever need to rebuild a Japanese carburetor, buy some nice JIS screwdrivers. Thank me later!

I work on small engines/powersport engines. Most of the carburetors are Japanese. I love my Vessel JIS screwdriver.

Vessel has a cool version that you can strike with a hammer to loosen tough screws. I think it’s called “impacta”.

Been looking for JIS screwdrivers which don't cost a fortune here in Europe, not had much luck. Don't quite need it before a few months from now but it's still frustrating!

The Japanese company "Vessel" make JIS drivers that are generally quite well regarded and not too expensive.

Yeah, I'd buy their megadora ones ideally, £25+ per screwdriver is too expensive imo.

Check out "Vessel Famidora 8 TD-800" on eBay or other places! It's a lovely kit and affordable enough for me in USA to stockpile them.

Cheers for the recommendation. Doesn't seem to be JIS though? It can be hard to tell and I'm no expert at all, but they seem to be normal Philips.

Could be a mistranslation thing. They lock into my vintage Japanese stuff really nicely in such a way as to make me think JIS.

Ali Express might not have Mag-quality tools, but they will likely have something sufficient at a decent price.

Also game consoles, laptops, arcade machines, …

There are many other Phillips-like but not Phillips head designs in common use, including:

Pozidriv, used on many devices manufactured in the EU.

Phillips ACR which is Phillips with extra ridges for more torque/less stripping

Frearson is used in fine woodworking screws

MorTorque is used in some aerospace applications. Rolls-Royce jet engines are covered with them.

Offset Cruiciform, AKA Torq-set, aka Nazi Screws, were previously common in aviation but are not typically used in new commercial design.

As usual wiki has a pretty decent article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives#Cruciform...

They missed the offset cruciform tho. https://www.phillips-screw.com/drive_systems/torq-set/

They didn't miss it, it's near the end under tamper-resistant for some reason.

"Tamper-resistant" usually just means "normal people won't have a screwdriver for it".

Frearson is also used in most marine applications: https://fairwindfasteners.com/blogs/news/reed-prince-frearso...

For me the Robertson are the best (square heads). All over Canada and very common there, never found them in Europe.

Hex keys are more common here in Europe I would say.

Yeah, hex and torx.

Seriously, for tough places 60 degrees before reinsert vs 90 degrees win.

This is where North America got it right 100%. Coming from Europe I was used to Phillips and flathead but my eyes were opened here in Canada when all screws were basically either the #6 or (mostly) the #8 Robertson. Why on earth do I have literally 20 different Phillips and maybe 10 different flathead bits? And that's finding the right one that doesn't slip and destroy the screw is so much work. Robertson ftw.

I owned a honda motorcycle from the mid-70s for a while. I have a hammer actuated JIS impact driver, as a result: the crank-case was held on by 8 of the bloody things.

I used to have a Honda CD200 Benly; I still have a hammer-actuated JIS impact driver.

On of my most memorable courses in school was an evolutionary computation course. It dealt with algorithms like using genetic algorithms for search.

Interesting work.

One of the lectures I remember mentioned some work being done using genetic algorithms to design automotive fenders to absorb the greatest amount of energy.

I could imagine using GAs to design optimal screw heads. You'd need a set of restrictions, but I think physics models are well known and simple enough to do it.

Then there's the big question. What other common everyday objects do we overlook that could use a redesign using similar techniques?

I got a set of JIS screwdrivers to help me disassemble Nikkor lenses.

I wish I'd read this before camming out the screws holding my Nikkor 105mm trying to get into it to fix a sticky aperture :(.

On the bright side, I didn't completely round them out - I knew enough to stop when it came out the first time. I've been meaning to send it off, but maybe I'll just invest in the proper drivers instead.

I let a repairman service a 105/2.5 that didn't focus to infinity, as well as a 35/1.4 with slow aperture blades, but sadly he suffered a stroke and had to stop working :(

Not an uncommon outcome. I also nearly had a stroke the first time I encountered those blasted JIS screws.

Something I've found is that if I don't have precisely the right bit on hand, a sharp new Phillips bit will usually work well enough, and much better then a dull rounded one.

I keep going for bits that kind of work and if I can't find anything my lowest common denominator is the angle grinder. Then I can replace the thing with a proper screw.

Does DIN 5260 mean Jeep will need to change those taillights?

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