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I think this is an overly dogmatic way of looking at Open Source.

Open Source is a functional definition that served us for 25 years. E.g. if software is Open Source, it can be included in a Linux distribution. Most distributions do not accept software that is incompatible with the Open Source definition. Diluting the term open source makes it more difficult to talk about a certain class of software licenses.

And why dilute the term if we have the perfect alternative term source available?

Because it is open source. It's not Free Open Source Software (FOSS) as deemed by some foundation or another. There is a lot of great open source software not included in Linux because of licensing issues (e.g. BSD clashing with GPL). Source available has generally meant you can have the source if you meet some criteria (have a license), but the license prevents you from redistributing it. I haven't dug into this license but it seems less restrictive than the AGPL.

How is it less restrictive when AGPL allows you to run a SaSS, but this one doesn't?

It's a different restriction. AGPL lets you do anything as long as it is just as Free (as in freedom), while these kind of license only let you do things that don't compete with whatever is the current copyright owner business is doing. And business tend to change over time, and it might be simple to be clear to a court if you are competing or not.

"Do whatever you want as long as you keep it Free Software" vs "do whatever you want as long as we believe you are not taking customers for us"

As usual, RMS was right, and I recommend reading the Free Software vs Open Source essay, unfortunately both names make it easy to misinterpret their respective fundamental idea (Free can and is usually interpreted as "gratis", and open as available/published/shared)

I agree with your sentiment, but I'd like to clarify the following, IMO:

> It's a different restriction.

AGPL doesn't impose restrictions. It provides guarantees (that modified versions will remain AGPL and therefore open source for everybody).

> AGPL lets you do anything as long as it is just as Free (as in freedom)

By the very definition of open source software, you can do pretty much what you want, for your own usage. If you want to distribute (e.g. provide a service) with a modified version, then you need to guarantee that modified version retains the right that the original version granted.

Sorry but you are just changing angles and discussing semantics.

Let me do the same for the quasi "open source" licenses:

Elastic license doesn't impose restrictions. It provides guarantees (that modified versions will not take business from you).

The only way you guarantee something, is by restricting something else. AGPL restricts distribution.

> Elastic license doesn't impose restrictions.

It does. It explicitly forbids usage. FOSS doesn't impose any restrictions on usage.

Fundamentally different things. I encourage you to review the four freedoms of Free Software [1] and see how AGPLv3 provide them all while Elastic License does not.

[1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

> FOSS doesn't impose any restrictions on usage.

It does impose restrictions on distribution (which is one kind of usage) which was my point.

I'm fully aware of the four freedoms, I'm fully aware that elastic is not compliant. I'm fully aware that elastic is not open source by OSD, nor Free as per FSF. I was just stating that both impose restrictions, they are just of a different kind. I'm not advocating for elastic (i do not like non-free licenses), please do not misunderstand.

>> Elastic license doesn't impose restrictions. > It does. It explicitly forbids usage.

Please read that statement in its context. I was just doing the same thing you did. Swapping restrictions for guarantees. There is no such thing as a guarantee without restring something.

> AGPL restricts distribution.

It does not restrict distribution, instead of restricts the ability to limit/restrict distribution. Quite a significant difference.

Also, fundamentally, one (AGPL) is putting the freedoms of the code and its users over those of the authors whereas the other (ELv2) puts the freedoms and interests of its authoring business over the freedom of the code and it's users.

> It does not restrict distribution, instead of restricts the ability to limit/restrict distribution. Quite a significant difference.

semantics. Saying i cannot distribute something without providing the same freedoms given to me is still restricting what/how I distribute.

> Also, fundamentally, one (AGPL) is putting the freedoms of the code and its users over those of the authors whereas the other (ELv2) puts the freedoms and interests of its authoring business over the freedom of the code and it's users.

Yes. I fully agree. It's not like I haven't said something similar right but it's just discussing semantics at this point. So I'll stop.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34530039

I despise licenses like Elastic's and wished SaaS would just use AGPL.

Is it now? I was under the assumption it was an ideological definition, at least that's how people present every time one of these projects are even a smidge off from the OSI definition.

I don't think most major Open Source projects in the last 10 years have even once considered,

'E.g. if software is Open Source, it can be included in a Linux distribution.'

That is exactly what I mean by "out of touch".

If I had to guess the primary motivator for being Open Source, are the communal and moral aspects of it.

Software Freedom is an ideology. Open Source is a definition.

Well the trademark is going the way of bandaid, and definitions change regularly.

Edit: I see you edited that part out.

The OSI definition hasn't changed. It barely changed what it borrowed from the Debian Free Software Guidelines before that.

("Open Source" itself isn't a trademark, but the OSI bits are, so I removed it to avoid confusion.)

(There's no indication that the legal construction of a trademark is "going the way of the bandaid", or that bandaids are "going the way of the bandaid" for that matter.)

> You should be able to share source, allow individuals to use and modify your work and build a community around that work without worrying that same work will be co-opted by an entity seeking to undermine the effort you and your community have done for years, by slapping a different name on it and hosting it, competing directly against you with your own work as a business.

The project in question is a CLI tool to a cloud platform that wraps an open source project (Kafka), complete with a page advertising why to use the wrapped software instead of the open-source version.

Its great that this person can work on a project, and share the source, but if anything, they're literally the ones doing the undermining of a community by re-branding existing OS Software. There's no community to form, no reason to expect anyone to contribute. The only reason anyone would want to modify this codebase is to interact with the centralized service through a different way.

"Source available" is a perfectly valid state, and describes a codebase like this which you can view, and even edit locally. "Open Source" is a term used for years to describe certain freedoms regarding software that has led to the abilities of many software users to modify and use software for whatever purpose they like, like the company in question using Kafka. Using an open-source codebase to make money is not undermining the project, its explicitly allowed in the license. We're all so much better off because open source projects, like Kafka, don't have these controlling and self-serving license.

The "dogmatic definition" of open source is what has been used for decades. Applying it to something that doesn't meet that definition invites confusion.

If a project wants to do something different, and develop an "open project" under some terms that aren't open source, they are free to do so, but they shouldn't call it something it's not.

Sure, I agree. Let's start popularizing other terms, but I think the relevance of the term Open Source will see a substantial decrease then, because I don't think people now largely use the word to mean what it meant decades ago. I think the popularity the term has now is for reasons entirely different, reasons like community building and some reasons of morality, and I think the term can either evolve to fit the industry's current norms or be reduced.

I would assert/guess/think that there are more developers who have started in the last 10-15 years who use the term for its colloquial meaning than there were developers in the entirety of the field in the preceding 50 years. Just from a numbers perspective, if I'm right, the colloquialism is going to win out.

> without worrying that same work will be co-opted by an entity seeking to undermine the effort you and your community have done for years

That literally is the point of open source: that it's not reliant on a single vendor. That's what open source was created for, and that's a big part of why it's thrived.

It's fine to create other structures, but as many have pointed out here, those other structures aren't open source. There are a lot of licenses that allow access to source code (very common in enterprise licenses) but have restrictions on what you can do with that source code.

Companies want the goodwill and community support that being open source provides without the obligations (copyleft with GPL-like licences and the do whatever you want with the code of MIT-like licenses). Defending attempts to redefine open source like this is just carrying water for megacorps.

"entity seeking to undermine the effort you and your community have done for years, by slapping a different name on it and hosting it, competing directly against you with your own work as a business."

The ability to fork was always a core value of Open Source. Especially if there was a community around a project that invested lots of energy into it - and then drama comes. Without forking it means it will always be dependant on the creator. Not the spirit I would like ot get into myself and I also don't like to see those 2 concepts mixed up.

Use AGPL then. If any other business wants to "undermine" yours, they would then have to let you "undermine" theirs as well.

Exactly. Such a definition of open source is hardly universal. I think of it as a sliding scale - to what extent is this open source? Does it allow me to:

* view, download and modify the source code?

* distribute the code as part of another project?

* distribute modified versions of the code?

* do whatever I like with it?

Arguing that unless you meet the OSI definition, you can’t call yourself open source is a little like saying you can’t call a peanut a nut: it all depends on the context of the conversation. At the OSI annual conference, sure this isn’t open source. On a Show HN I’m fine with it being open source.