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Comment by herodotus | Hacker News Reader

I belong to a local astronomy club, and was part of the "Light Pollution Abatement" group for a while. But I had to stop: persuading people that light pollution matters and that something should be done about it is almost impossible. Even some of the comments here indicate to me that few people really care.

So why do I? It is not just to see more from my telescope. It is because this is part of a very broad problem. The problem? That humans on this planet have not even considered how we can live in a state of stasis with this planet. Weather catastrophes, insect decline, crop failures to pollination problems, shortages of seafood: these are all symptoms of the root problem, and light pollution is just one more symptom.

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To someone who isn't up on the topic, it sounds a lot less serious than the accumulation of gases in the atmosphere that threaten the majority of life on the planet.

Maybe they're just prioritizing where they spend their energy. And maybe they're right.

What you are missing is that the energy to power all those unnecessary lights are one of the reasons for the gasses in the universe. And many of them are completely unnecessary.

Light pollution is killing off many types of insects. That has cascading effects up the food chain.

Of course, global warming can also cause civilization to collapse.

On the other hand, many of steps that can be taken for this problem are incredibly simple.

I think the issue here is the same as recycling and carbon reduction. There's only so much us as individuals can do, our impact is extremely limited and negligible.

You'd need to convince the governments to do something about it, but that's a large task given there's a lack of money for lobbying and a lack of profits to encourage them to do anything about it.

Governments are composed of individuals.

And people vote for them.

And politicians barely listen to their voters

You're right, but there are real system level dynamics and complex incentives at play, and you don't do the actual problem any justice with such a skin deep dismissal.

Why does it matter?

Ok, a little drunk so I will tell you how I really feel.

You people care so much about light pollution, the environment and the future of humanity so much. Oh how grand and amazing of a person you must be.

Have you considered that many if not most humans endure enough suffering to not give a shit about humanity being destroyed you along with it? You care so much about the planet but the planet will be fine, it is humanity that is screwed.

So why should individuals that live their entire lives in suffering because of the very conditions humanity as a collective has encouraged and enacted give a shit about humanity?

You all know what is right like everyone else and you made your choice on what to be concerned about. So enjoy the fruits of your labour like everyone else!

I just want to sit in my back yard and not have laser-like LED streetlights burning my retinas at night. And yet, two of my neighbors have those set up in their backyards, so…

Must be nice to have a backyard to begin with. Your worries and concerns are valid just don't expect others to care about what happens in your backyard especially when they don't have one for themselves.

> why should individuals that live their entire lives in suffering because of the very conditions humanity as a collective has encouraged and enacted give a shit about humanity?

Because if they don't, they're descendents will suffer even more.

I mean, really what you're asking is "why should people care about others?", which feels like a whole branch of philosophy.

Which is why we see so many people choosing to have no descendents.

Exactly this! What descendants? The disconnect is real. With or without nature life is already unlivable for many.

I hear you. Like many others I have seen what's wrong, seen the carelessness, the brutality. I'll skip the details. I've also seen what's right ... caring ... growing more obvious. Seen any horses or dogs or slaves whipped in the streets lately? Six-year-olds working 12-hour days?

Many have been misled and deceived and densensitized and cheated and de-liberated. Yet they will still help each other, and even complete strangers, with nothing visible to gain. Giving a shit makes a difference. That's how I really feel.

Whoo that got dark fast. We take it back, a little light here is okay. ;)

There is some suffering in the world right now. And it’s bad in places, there is no question. I don’t know exactly what suffering you’re thinking of or referring to, but if it were true that most people didn’t care at all about humanity being destroyed, then most people wouldn’t even be alive. The thing about humans is that we’re hard-wired to want to live, and because of that we have hope even when suffering is high.

One thing to perhaps consider is that those of us lucky enough to not live in suffering have the opportunity to help others and to reduce suffering. It is going to take some people caring about humanity, and caring about the planet, in order to improve on the very situation you’re talking about. Parent was pretty clear we’re talking about a symptom of a larger problem, and I guess if we were all face to face philosophizing over beers, you might even agree they were talking in large part about the same problem you’re talking about - us not taking care of each other. If nobody cared about this, then how is it going to get any better?? What can you and I do to make it better?

You missed my point. I personally don't care about what you care or don't care about. Do what you want. I'm just gonna care about shit that matters to me and most people are this way as well. It's a luxury to worry about even how our owen lives and wellbeing will be a decade from now and you expect people to care about the planet in 2050 lol. Ideals are cute but get real if you want real change.

You’re right, I did miss your point. How can you expect any change if nobody has ideals? You’re effectively arguing to keep the status quo by trying to make fun of people who care. You didn’t answer the important question: what can you and I do to make it better? If the goals in this thread aren’t valid in your opinion, then please offer some goals that are worthwhile. What, exactly, do you mean by “get real if you want real change”? What is “real change”, and who’s going to make it?

BTW, are you saying you don’t believe that deforestation, rising temperatures, and extreme weather caused by climate change is having any effect on human suffering? You seem to be making some unstated assumptions when you suggest that caring about the planet isn’t “real”.

You also seem to assume that we can’t work on more than one problem at a time. To me it seems like there are enough people that we might have the ability to address environmental issues in parallel with social, financial, and political issues. Does everyone need to care about the planet? Maybe not. So what’s wrong with some people working to reduce global warming while others work to, say, end the war in Ukraine, or reduce poverty in China, or end death by hunger or Malaria in Africa?

> what can you and I do to make it better?

Again, missing the point. You are thinking in ideals and big pictures, missing the forest for the trees.

> BTW, are you saying you don’t believe that deforestation, rising temperatures, and extreme weather caused by climate change is having any effect on human suffering? You seem to be making some unstated assumptions when you suggest that caring about the planet isn’t “real”.

Now how could you have possible come to that conclusion based on anything I said. Let me use this to try and explain again: Do you want someone in rural arkansas to give a shit about global warming? Then find a way to help them get out of poverty. Do you want amazon tribal people getting evicted for deforestation to care about ukraine? Help them fight to keep their land and forest. Yoh want a black person in inner city LA to care about ukraine? You specifically must show them how you are helping fight homelessness and police brutality, Your big picture pleas for people to give a shit fall on deaf or apathetic ears because you are not addressing specific individual or group needs.

> You also seem to assume that we can’t work on more than one problem at a time.

Actually, I am saying the opposite of that. Most people do want things for everyone as a whole to improve. That isn't the same as giving a shit, as in voting, donating and acting to improve others' situation. That's why global warming isn't front and center in politics in most places that aren't wealthy. You see people like Greta portesting climate change, from nice northern european countries or wealthy counties in the US. If you want change, other people have to actively care.

Look at global warming again, yeah, it would be nice if that didn't happen. Personally, I don't even bother to vote because I have no problems that will solve. It's not that I don't care about global warming but that much more immediate and bigger things are not getting attention so I am not gonna give a shit because I have my own plate full on too of which I see a myriad of more immediate problems like chold sex slavery and human abuse right here in major US cities rampant, rape kits going back decades backlogged, deeply corrupt police I mean I fear going outdoors in the event I interact with a police officer and have my life ruined, and you have our country (US) headed for a civil so there is always that and much more. So yeah, I already survive major natural disasters and pandemics fine, being alive 10-20 years from now is a crazy idea for me, I hope you all make it ok but global warming then is more of a concern than an asteriod hitting earth or the sun dying in 20 million years nowhere near a million other things.

The solution from you: actually adjust your priority to give a shit about more immediate and impactful things for others near you, whoever they might be and since you are doing something for them they will care.

For me, my problems are my own I don't ask help from anyone but as far as others go: bring back cruel and public punishments for indisputably proven child abusers andn traffickers, let the goal of punishment be prevention where the very tought of the crime becomes unimaginable. No more hiding behind "it's not humane", these people chose to forfeit their humanity and humane treatment. Can't stomach that, then as much as it is one of my top things I care about let us all give up our privacy and have our digital and physical lives constantly monitored to prevent this. This must end now, at all costs. There is nothing more important that protecting the most innocent membersof society. A society that draws a line at preventing their abuse, especially at such a large scale deserves to be destroyed. Tell me you will help with that and I will do anything I can to help you with whatever priority you think is higher.

I hope I am explaining myself better. For a long time I used to arrogantly think that my problems were special. That even the very idea of a future decades from now seems imaginary at best. What I learned is how many if not most people are doing worse than me and any problem I have, 10s of millions have them also. I too would want climate change prevented or less light pollution and less bees dying off and all that but understand that others have a wildly different perspective than you resulting in a different priority for them. Your concerns are valid, however they are yours. Many of us are not in a position where the future of humanity is a big priority. Even just being alive now making it this far is a miracle and beyond that I am not sure humanity even deserves to survive, if justice for the most innocent and peace for anyone that seeks truth earnestly and loves justice are not the biggest priority for this species then why should humanity even survive (self included of course)? Not only is destruction certain, by collective priority we have earned it by any measure of justice.

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