Hacker News Reader

Comment by LinuxBender | Hacker News Reader

That does prevent forcing a particular religion on people but it does not in any way prevent the mix of religion and government. As just one example, court rooms still have people swear on Christian bibles. I believe it has recently become optional. There are also many government buildings that fund the creation and installation of religious statues and bible verses on plaques in their halls using taxpayer funds. There are many laws derived from Christian ethics and values.

There are also unwritten concepts that are effectively enforced such as prison review boards giving credence to someone that has become a Born Again Christian when considering parole. That is not written anywhere to my knowledge.

But you are right, they can not force someone to be Christian.

View on HN

>> As just one example, court rooms still have people swear on Christian bibles. I believe it has recently become optional.

You watch too much TV. Most courts do not have you swear "on" anything, you simple raise your hand "Swear or affirm under the pains and penalties of perjury you will tell the truth" some do not even add the "under the pains and penalties of perjury"

if there are any courts in the US still using a Bible they are in the EXTREME minority.

>There are also many government buildings that fund the creation and installation of religious statues and bible verses on plaques in their halls

Pretty sure that is also not true... Governments have allowed the installation of such things but they are often funded by private groups. I would love a citation where the GOVERNMENT paid for out of tax payer money a religious installations is say they last 20 years.. (paid for, not approved)

>>effectively enforced such as prison review boards giving credence to someone that has become a Born Again Christian when considering parole.

Citation...

Parole Boards often require the offender to Admit guilt and ask for forgiveness, this has being interpreted by extreme anti-religious groups as them "requiring people to become born again Christians"

You’re completely ignoring the fact that the government not forcing a single church is the separation of church and state being talked about

“We can make Christianity the de facto law of the land, have federal holidays be Christian holidays, have the interests of the church intertwined with that of the state, have “secular” state institutions mirror christian sacraments, have our pledge of allegiance essentially be a declaration of our country being Christian — but hey, they can’t make you go to church on Sunday” is not exactly what one might call a strong separation.

American culture is Christian due to it descending from Europeans. No shit.

I never said I wanted to listen to your opinions about the modern state of religion in America. I told you a fact, that church and state are separated by law in this nation and it’s encoded into the bill of rights. That you dislike American culture having evolved from a Christian one is your own axe to grind clearly.

It’s not about the culture, it’s the fact that the separation isn’t actually really all of that separate. If you swap the “secular” elements enshrined in our government to another faith it becomes glaringly obvious that we are respecting an establishment of religion.

* One nation, under Allah, indivisible… (Islam)

* Marriage is a legal institution between one man any many women (Mormon)

* “The office is closed for Yom Kippur next Monday.” (Judaism)

* The right to bodily autonomy begin at birth so there is no moral issue with abortion (Satanic Temple)

Of course the people are descendants of protestants and so our customs would naturally reflect that but so does our government. As a country we were so concerned about escaping state sponsored religion that we didn’t stop to think at all about how codifying norms into law that come from a particular religion end up creating a religious rule in all but name. Like we don’t even pretend to have religious freedom in any meaningful sense — your right to practice the traditions of your faith or have your institutions respected ends where what is acceptable and normal as defined by Christians ends.

Your examples are as much cultural as religious, at least in this era. "Under god" was added to the anthem in the 50s, and I doubt it'll last another decade.

Plural marriage isn't widely practiced or supported for pragmatic reasons.

Holidays are religious artifacts, yet not all of them, and there is no forced participation anymore. (Except in so far as government services are unavailable.)

Abortion rights have and are evolving. As the old, more religious folks die off it should swing the other way soon.

American culture descended from Christian fundamentalism, not Christianity. It’s a huge difference and it shows all over the place in how bigoted US laws are, compared to most of Europe.

Incorrect. What we now call "Christian fundamentalism" did not exist prior to the 1800s.

America's culture is syncretic, with three primary components:

1. A fundamentalist Protestant Christian ethos, derived from the Puritans;

2. A cosmopolitan and secular ethos, derived from British and Western European mercantilism;

3. Literally everything else, including the last 240 years of immigration and infusion by every non-Christian group under the sun.

Whenever people say that America is "Christian," I wonder if they mean it in that syncretic sense, or in an attempt to erase or obscure it.

The puritans were fleeing persecution by a state church along with economic issues

Is there an alternative to swearing on the Bible for atheist politicians in the US?

You can swear on the constitution or any book you please

You don't have to swear on a bible

Reply on news.ycombinator.com