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Comment by bennysonething | Hacker News Reader

Hrm, I'm in my 40s. I got a criminal record at 20 for being caught in a club with 3 pills. It still didn't stop me. I continued doing Es for a long time. It was good at the time but I wish I hadn't done them. It's like a lot of other drugs, once you've done it everything becomes dull without it. I used to think about them all the time. Until it got to the point were I hated them. The come downs became horrific (once you've done a lot of them, hangovers don't come close).

I was given some mdma at a festival 5 years ago. I hated it. It was strong but I hated the feeling of being out of my mind.

Mainly I think all I got out of it was a ruined short term memory and wasted time recovering from endless nights out.

I don't look back with rose tinted specs. I regret it.

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Well said. These drug-positive articles never appropriately discuss the negative side effects of the lifestyle in a way that seems realistic.

Several people from my youth never made it to adulthood to regret the things they did as a result of drugs. Even "harmless" drugs like MDMA have consequences.

Only a fool would consider any drug harmless, obviously all (including MDMA) can have consequences.

Anything is dangerous if you are reckless, i bet druguse with proper guidance would be way better than the advice you get in the trailerpark.

Recreational horseback riding is statistically more deadly and more likely to result in serious injury than ecstasy use. [0]

Of course everything has risks. But nobody demands an article about the pleasures of equestrianism to include a warning about traumatic brain injury and paralysis risks.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/11/drugs-...

David nutt is brilliant. I loved his book drink. However I think that horse riding Vs mdma point is a bit limited. I think there are dangers worth facing as the overall experience probably helps you grow as person, so horse riding has the dangers, the skills, the discipline and the responsibilities that go with it. In my mdma taking years I don't think I met anyone who benefited from it. In fact I know of quite the opposite.

Edit: btw I think all drugs should be decriminalised.

There’s much more literature and comment on the negative aspects of drug use IMO.

I’d agree that discussing only the upsides in a general debate would be stupid, even unethical. But on a personal account? Probably not.

Believe it or not, some people can have very positive interactions from regular drug use.

I’ve used E and mushrooms maybe a few dozen times each and I don’t have anything bad to say except the brutal comedowns with E the next day, and an upset tummy with shrooms. Can’t say the same with weed or alcohol - plenty of bad interactions with those.

Some people are high-functioning drug users. Look at Joe Rogan, whatever you think of the guy, it’s difficult to object that he’s productive, fit and family-orientated while consuming copious amounts of weed.

I would become lazy, unmotivated and depressed if I smoked 1% of what Rogan or other high-functioning stoners smoke, but I think it’s as interesting to know about their stories as it is to hear about people whose lives have been sadly ravaged by drugs.

Is it appropriate to discuss the negative side effects in this article? It's clearly a positive article about drugs - that's apparently just from the title. Must every article about a topic cover the positives and the negatives, even when it's a piece relating someone's personal experience that's clearly not intended to be unbiased news or science reporting?

Also, would you hold the same standard to drug-negative articles? Must they cover the positive side of drugs in a way that's realistic?

I won't accuse you of strawmanning but this misrepresents my statement.

It's would be weird to drop in figures about drug deaths in this article or something like that. I don't see why that would be relevant.

But it'd be good if there was some more critical reflecting done. Perhaps your drug days would be remembered less fondly if a friend died of an OD? Or maybe you were shielded from the criminal elements of drugs. Perhaps you avoided catching any of the lifechanging STDs that run rampant amongst drug users.

It's the "it can't possibly happen to me" mentality that these nostalgia-fueled articles have that rubs me the wrong way.

With that said, I do think anti-drug messaging needs to confront other positive aspects of drug use, particularly in controlled clinical settings. Many staunch anti-drug people haven't even heard of it because they simply don't encounter it in their usual reading material.

The thing that never worked for me in school was messaging like "drugs will kill you". Well yes that's true. But drugs are way more insidious than this. In my experience they are subtle in how they mess with your mind and over all well being. They take away my drive for natural highs, and natural highs are usually good things. For example exercise, accomplishments and learning. The come downs destroy free time. But worst is they seem to reset my happiness level to lower. Small things that should bring joy no longer do. Thankfully those effects have been temporary for me. I'm glad my drug use is over. I was only ever a weekend partier. Still managed to complete a degree and hold down a job. But I'm done with drugs for good.

> Perhaps your drug days would be remembered less fondly if a friend died of an OD?

Perhaps having a friend who died of an OD isn't actually that common amongst MDMA users on the dance scene?

Why does it rub you up the wrong way that this person has positive recollections?

Drug deaths from MDMA are not very common, certainly compared to drug deaths from (for example) alcohol. As such, someone who did ecstasy at dance clubs in their youth may be less likely to have lost a mate than those who drink. Maybe that’s why she doesn’t talk about that?

> it can't possibly happen to me

But there's the rub - 'it' didn't.

Are we all supposed to be sorry for having had a good time and come away happier for it?

The problem is that the consequences are different for every person. We treat drugs as though messing with them has a guaranteed outcome, but it's not true.

Drugs effect everyone differently. People use them for different reasons. People experience different outcomes from taking them.

You can talk about 'appropriate' but you're assuming that they must talk about the negative aspects. Why? If some people have a positive experience with drugs why do we need to pretend they're lying?

Is life still dull?

I did ecstasy a number of times in my 20s. All sorts of other things too. In my 40s intense drug experiences no longer appeal, but I enjoy all sorts of facets of life - friends, fine food, the countryside…

Maybe I’m just lucky, but this “normal life is all dull” never seems to have hit me.

I do miss the odd spliff…

As someone who still take mdma occasionally in their thirties the few times I can actually go clubbing and have a couple of free days after when it’s not going to matter I’m somewhat tired, it’s very much a question of how much.

Taking MDMA while partying is undeniably fun and does enhance the experience at least for me. It’s very much about the physical sensation, the energy and what it does to how you feel the music. Plus it doesn’t massively alter my judgement the way alcohol does and the come down is mild provided you don’t take a lot.

I think I can understand both side of the fence however. Part of the issue is that most of the people who are extremely attracted to party drugs are both young and not very reasonable in how they use them.

What you said reminded me of the bird video about withdrawal and habituation: https://youtu.be/HUngLgGRJpo (which of course may be biased in the other direction)

But that's my stance on drug use as well: It's pretty irrelevant how great your time is while you're on it if it turns your life into hell whenever you're not on it.

Ha! Exactly that. Never seen that before :)

> once you've done it everything becomes dull without it

It sounds like you're saying that life is permanently less interesting. I'm sorry that happened to you. This is not a side effect that I am aware of. Are you sure that this came from the drug?

Known side effects are temporary depression (among others). 5-HTP may help ameliorate it.

I think this comes with long term, heavy use. I’ve heard similar stories.

> I think this comes with long term, heavy use.

That makes sense, but GP wrote "once you've done it, everything becomes dull without it". I interpreted that to mean it happened after the first time.

After the first time trying it all I could think about was doing it again. I remember walking home with my friend who was doing it for first time and both of us agreed it was the best thing we'd ever done. We did it again shortly after.

I've done MDMA and other hallucinogens a lot and quite enjoyed then. I guess, for me, there is always the knowledge that it's not real. No judgment at all, though. Chemical balance is extremely personal.

It's kind of like going to a movie or a concert that I enjoy, but at the end it's nice to return. If the high continued I'd feel miserably unhappy despite the artificial chemical boost.

I haven’t used illegal drugs, but I am bipolar. Mania is a high that nothing else has ever matched.

I have benzos for anxiety. And they really make an exciting social event so much brighter and clearer. I’m so comfortable in my own skin, I can just be around absolute strangers.

It’s hard to compare to those highs. My daily live comparatively dull. But I’ve accepted the tradeful because the other things that come with mania are not worth it.

Occasionally, I get a glimpse of what I had. I should walk away, but I don’t. And pay for it later.

Benzos are also misused and highly addictive, i lived with an addict once and the moodswings where crazy when those were in the mix, tried it myself once it makes you very confident until you mix that with alcohol what a rollercoaster, never again im happy it can be used for good tho! :)

Yeah. Gave up alcohol when I got diagnosed. I’m terrified of becoming addicted to anything.

I don’t particularly like Benzos but when I need them, I really need them.

It took a lot of prodding and nagging from professionals, friends, and to get me to use them at all. :)

Thankfully that effect has been temporary. Yes I remember 5 htp. I used to take it

The only thing I have to add is that your MDMA might have been cut with something. Never take anything that you haven't tested, or where you trust the person you got it from to have tested it.

Testing is cheap and easy and could save your life. Always know what you're taking.

>Testing is cheap and easy

I had a college student who came to me as a trusted adult and asked about E (because their friends were doing it while in the Netherlands). I told them what I knew about the drug and that they should always test it. When asked "how do I do that," I was at a loss and couldn't find any useful info by searching sites that I wasn't afraid to browse. How does one get a legit testing kit without exposing themselves to risk?

https://rollsafe.org/mdma-test-kits/

rollsafe is a fantastic resource for harm reduction information. They have links to test kits from various retailers and instructions on how to use them.

They also have a page detailing a stack of supplements you can take to allegedly reduce the neurotoxicity of MDMA. I don’t know about the veracity of that information but the test kit info is spot-on.

But isn't buying these kits online essentially just a way to add yourself to a list of people who do illegal drugs? Maybe I am just overly paranoid, but I'd hate to see some college kid have their future ruined over something that shouldn't be, but is a crime.

Some paranoia is rational but in this case I would judge the potential risks: (I) extremely low probability of 'future' problems involving ordering testing kits which are not themselves illegal (II) high probability of youths doing illegal drugs (III) extremely high probability of illegal drugs being impure (IV) moderate probability of impurities being dangerous

You're already on the list of people who might do illegal drugs by asking this question.

Part of the reason I linked the page I did is because they go out of their way to provide options that are LEGAL in the areas they're being shipped to.

This is impractical. It's like saying "get drunk, but don't drink and drive". Once you are high, you lose your ability to make good judgements.

As a former heavy drinker, drinking responsibly is more about planning ahead while you're sober so you don't have to rely upon your drunk self to make the right call. Going to a bar? Take a cab or walk _to_ the bar, so you don't even have a car to drive home. Or, stay in and drink at home with friends and plan on the friends staying over the night.

You're right, though: put yourself in a situation where your drunk/high self needs to be responsible, and you're asking for trouble.

If you've already lost your ability to make those kinds of judgements, you've probably already had to much. That's not a problem you can work on in the moment, but it's something to reflect on when you're sober.

If you don't know what you're putting into your body, you're always making an irresponsible choice. You're trusting someone to tell you how it will affect you, how much is safe, and what the side effects will be. Plenty of women know that trusting someone to give you the substance you think you're getting can mean getting taken advantage of.

Being high doesn't implicitly eliminate all of your self control. As impractical as it might be, the smallest bit of planning and caution can save your life.

Edit: I knew the silent downvotes would come from people who are anti-drug and not willing to even try understanding another's experiences. I gave an honest description, but somehow an honest data point is unacceptable as it goes against what some people want to hear. If you downvote, please explain why because the issues of drug effects, drug value and (il)legalisation need a better discussion than what I keep finding on HN from a subset of people here. Please downvote for a reason, not because you can't accept what I say. <sermon ends, normal service will now be resumed>

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Huh? Sounds like you overdid them big time. No offence but that sounds like a flaw in you, not the drugs (but yeah, that gets complex).

> The come downs became horrific (once you've done a lot of them, hangovers don't come close).

Double huh? I'm in a comedown from last night's E and... well, there is no comedown. As for 'hangover', I've never had one from E, ever. I seriously don't know what you've been taking. Maybe it just isn't your drug? Edit: it does sound like you seriously overdid it: "once you've done a lot of them"

All I can say is your experience has zero intersection with mine. I'm sorry what is wonderful for me didn't work for you.

I think the downvotes may be coming from what looks kinda like an ad hominem attack vibe. Could've been phrased a bit less rudely. [I didn't downvote btw, I mostly agree with you.]

A lot of people had bad experiences with 'E' for all kinds of reasons, from the old set & setting issue, to overdoing it, to mixing with other drugs, to dirty pills.

MDMA clearly has therapeutic value. There are also many people who've had transcendent experiences with it in the wild who absolutely do not regret it. Then there are those in between (one of my best experiences was followed by a massive comedown). Humans are differently abled when it comes to exploring and/or self medicating-- many if not most are likely better off going through establishment health care channels, but those seeking their own paths shouldn't be demonized.

Ouch. A re-read and I can see what you mean about it being a bit personal. I wish I'd said it differently.

But the experience was simply mine and I wasn't speaking for anyone else. I don't know of anyone who's had a bad time on them, except a couple who it just made them throw up. It was just a data point, and I was not comfortable about the talk of comedowns as if they were inevitable and awful because they aren't. I've no doubt they can be though as you and @Mezzie testify.

Thanks for the feedback.

E definitely can have a comedown. It's the primary reason I never did it again personally.

People's sensitivities to drugs can vary wildly and often dosing recommendations don't consider that.

Now back to counting out tiny little beads because my main medicine isn't made in small enough doses for me.

"I gave an honest description, but somehow an honest data point is unacceptable"

"but that sounds like a flaw in you, not the drugs"

I seriously would reconsider your thesis, that mdma cannot be harmful and your judgment is not tainted.

Where exactly did I ever say "that mdma cannot be harmful" - point it out. I did not.

In fact I even said the exact opposite here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34380376

If clicking is too much work, here's the entire post: "Only a fool would consider any drug harmless, obviously all (including MDMA) can have consequences"

What you said elsewhere, I did not judge. I observed that here you acted agressive towards the shared bad experience of someone else, by saying the fault is with him and not the drug and then acted surprised because it was downvoted.

Edit: I would just recommend to you, reading what you wrote above another day and then maybe reevaluate your theory that you don't know what a hangover is

You haven't acknowledged you accused me of saying something I didn't, when I even said the exact opposite explicitly. Again, please point out where I said "that mdma cannot be harmful".

> you acted agressive towards the shared bad experience of someone else

I did not intentionally (and that it came across that way is entirely my fault). My point was his experiences were very much not mine. Therefore only that his experiences were not universal (as mine equally weren't). It was a data point.

> by saying the fault is with him

I did not. I asked "Maybe it just isn't your drug?" which is reasonable given his bad experince with it.

I don't feel you are representing me in good faith at all.

I notice that rather than answering my questions, you've simply edited your post to suggest that I'm wrong in a different way (yes, I know what a hangover is). Well, I "just recommend to you" to try answering honestly, and not misrepresenting people. Your behaviour is quite typical of the hard-core anti-drugs people I've argued with on HN; that they have to be right because drugs are wrong, and any tactic however dishonest can be used to win the argument.

Dude, by your own standards, I could say look at my other posts in the same thread, where I clearly state, that I am not anti drugs. I am pro legalisation for every drug there is, because grown up humans should decide for themself, what is good for them.

But I am very against propagating quite unreflected, like you seem to be doing to my perception. MDMA is very dangerous. Maybe not more than alcohol, or weed, but still not to be glorified. It might be useful and fun and even beneficial to some people, but I believe it is not beneficial to you, by the way you talk about it. Just my opinion, no need to "argument" any further.

I glorified nothing.

Yeah, all you've provided is your opinion, no facts. And apparently you can psych-analyse me telepathically to diagnose my drug use as "not beneficial".

Drug dangers presented in descending order of harm, by actual drug researchers: https://amp.theguardian.com/science/2009/nov/02/david-nutt-d...

Stop wasting my time.

"Yeah, all you've provided is your opinion, no facts"

I am all the time refering to the fact, that you responded to someones bad experience with MDMA with:

"but that sounds like a flaw in you, not the drugs"

Which qualifies as unreflected glorifying of a drug by my definition.

But like I said, it is your life, you are free to further ignore any opinions you don't like.

Please don't post flamewar comments to HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

We've had to ask you this before. Eventually we ban accounts that keep doing it. I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules, we'd appreciate it.

Please don't post flamewar comments to HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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