While it may be artificial to a degree, the experience is no less profound.
The problem with these kinds of experiences is that it is fantasy made real to a degree and life without those experiences can seem dull.
That can be tricky to reconcile and isn't really spoken about enough. That box can't be closed once open.
"Once you got the message, hang up the phone."
Dreamcatchers — rather indigenous culture broadly, at least in the US — also has a developed philosophy of oneness with nature. Again, when you see the insights psychedelics have to confer, it makes sense to go find the people who’ve been talking about those insights for millennia. Western thought is just an entirely different train. It’s all extremely valuable IMO but we have artifacts of western philosophies all around us every day. None of these are intended to remind us of The Big Ideas that one is likely to come across via psychedelics.
Colorful shirts: This is because you just appreciate certain patterns/colors more after seeing them on psychedelics. No clue how to describe this lasting impression but it is VERY real.
Pyramids/crystals: no clue but entirely possible they just fall into the same category as shirts for that individual (alongside things like kaleidoscopes).
[0] Note this is NOT some new age woo woo about quantum whatever. It’s the factual observation (made more obvious via meditation or psychedelics) that 100% of our experience of the world occurs via the “interpretation machine” that lives mostly inside our skull. Not one of us is making direct contact with “reality” as it exists beneath human interpretation.
Some people have a genuine academic curiosity about human belief systems and the nature of experience. It is similar to how a Anthropologist might have many artifacts in their home or a religious scholar would have different religious text.
It doesn't mean that do you believe in everything, as much as that means that you enjoy being curious and engaging with different ideas.
This seems to me somewhat different.
I don’t believe it applies in the same way to substances people use infrequently.
I reached heights of experience untold with MDMA on dance floors when I was younger. In my 40s I still get a kick out going to the zoo though, a walk in the countryside, solving a puzzle, or a visit to the pub with my mates.
I don't think it's about drugs, it could be video games, but when you overload your brain enough, you may experience a kind of color washout of the experiences that don't overload your brain.
The point I’m making is you can’t take a quote from Amy Winehouse about how boring life is without drugs and apply it to people who have just experienced anything intense.
Amy Winehouse was likely in PAWS with severely altered brain chemistry. It’s not just that other experiences were pale in comparison to what she’d been doing, it’s likely she was chemically incapable of feeling very much positive and responding normally.
But MDMA is seritogenic, not dopaminergic, and bad serotonin hygene is predominantly a too-little problem and not a too-much problem (unless you're using drugs, then you've got to regulate both ways).
Nobody's complaining, so far as I know, that having too many socal connections is degrading their capacity to enjoy a cup of tea in solitude.
I think this is the challenge of responsible drug use. Hedonic exhaustion might be actually zero or negative (making the rest of life better), depending on the person and use.
I think it has a lot to do with intent and moderation.
I've never met anybody who takes MDMA to feel normal. Most people I know who use it do so once or twice a year and carry lessons from that experience that make sober life better.
Molly taught me to let myself dance, for instance. Or to joke around with strangers.
Sure, people who do it every weekend have a degraded sense of normal after a while, but that's not just an amplified stage of normal use, it's damage to their ability to regulate serotonin. Friends don't let friends do that to themselves.
Unhealthy usage patterns of other drugs may cause damage to other systems depending on which systems those drugs activate (e.g. dopamine, gaba, opoid, etc) but if a different system is damaged it's different in kind and not degree.
This all-drugs-are-more-or-less-the-same narrative is dangerous. You learn that drugs are bad (thanks D.A.R.E.), and then you learn that part of that was a lie.
What's a curious person to do next except try them all?
As for the non-curious, if you go around with an all-drugs-bad attitude and don't have and idea of what healthy usage looks like (because the healthy users are keeping it a secret from you), you're unavailable to help course correct a friend whose usage has started to become problematic. By the time the problem is so bad that they can't hide it anymore, the ideal time to speak up will have long since passed.
But I understand the interpretation that "all drugs are on a spectrum of danger" is difficult to agree with unilaterally
That sounds like wisdom to me.
I've just seen unnuanced drug taboo cause so much harm that I have a knee-jerk reaction against it.
There are other boxes too, each box with a slightly different experience and each with a different price to pay. The price is irrelevant to the discussion though.
My question for you is, why is MDMA profound? Why the focus on this particular box. Why aren't you talking about the profound experiences generated by meth or heroin?
Truth is just an expression. I use it in the same light as "profoundness".
I understand the stigma associated with the drug. But the emotions generated by the drugs themselves are in reality actualized by the brain and that actualization cannot be invalidated. It is worth it to ask, think and wonder about this actualization even when you have no plans around taking the drugs yourself.
The topic at hand is centered around drugs that generate pleasure. You're a little left field with hallucinogenic drugs. I'm sure there's some sort of "profoundness" there as well but it's a different topic.
It's like saying the pleasure you feel when you eat a food you like isn't real.
Or the feelings you feel when someone kisses you aren't real.
Drawing arbitrary lines around what is real feeling based on the stimuli is very strange and usually driven by ignorance or fear.
Same goes for bonding, closeness and so on. You just tricked your brain into hallucinating emotional responses for things that are not there.
Salt enhances the flavour of food, MDMA enhances the experience that's already there.
It doesn't just invent the feelings, instead amplifies the feelings you have.
Is salt just fake taste?
If you think MDMA is giving you a feeling of deep friendship with a perfect stranger, then you might be hallucinating the feeling of a long and strong relationship.
However, that's not really the feeling you're getting on molly. It's more recognizing the preciousness of our shared humanity. If done with a friend or a lover, this in itself is a genuine bonding experience. If done with a stranger, you're not expecting anything more after the experience, but it still feels valuable.
"You clearly haven't taken Meth."
If MDMA users claim it's profound, is it really the same in the eyes of a meth user who has done both MDMA and meth? If the meth user can invalidate the experience with his own, then what does it say in general?
(edit - rate limited so can't respond below. 'Meth' is a strong stimulant, with some associated euphoria, it's not a profound emotional experience like mdma. Yes I'm speaking from experience. Phenethylamine-derived drugs are massively varied in their effects, see also for example the true-psychedelic mescaline, 2C-x and, well, the whole of Pihkal)
My guess is that once you take Meth, MDMA isn't really that big of a deal anymore.
They're totally different. My experience of them was totally different.
I found mdma more personal, soul-engaging, pleasurable and enlightning.
Meth was just overwhelming, rushy, detached feeling euphoria with a air of anxiety.
why do you keep making comments like this about meth in this thread?
better comparison, LSD and shrooms are very profound, but in a different way than E, think like introspective -vs- social
even better comparison is 2ct7, felt like a nice balanced combination of mdma and lsd, profound but not overwhelmingly
Here's a better way to phrase the question. Has someone who has taken both MDMA, heroin and Meth care to explain the differences in "profoundness" or "life affirmation" levels of each drug?
I suspect ignorance is bliss. People who haven't taken MDMA don't know how profound it is. People who have taken MDMA but not Meth don't realize that MDMA is childs play and that Meth is even more profound.
Cocaine feels very different to MDMA and heroin is different still.
MDMAs effect is one of filling your brain and body with love, bliss, sexuality and euphoria. Every sense you have is now coloured with absolute pleasure.
That's a very specific feeling. Comparing the effects of drugs in a way that judges their relative value is usually not helpful.
For example MDMA isn't hallucination inducing like LSD.
Other drugs transport your consciousness to completely alien experiences of space and time.
MDMA isn't like that. You're still you and your experiences, experienced through a new lense of pleasure.
There is always overlap, the palette of chemicals to alter in your brain is limited and these drugs alter often the same ones in different ways.
It isn't the drug that is important, but the experience. That's subjective and as tricky as judging the beauty of art.
Cocaine for example is fun. It feels good. You're energised, uninhibited, and combined with alcohol products enhanced euphoria. But if cocaine is Jackson Pollock then MDMA is Georgia O'Keeffe.
Have you done MDMA AND heroin/Meth? More important meth. Because these drugs have a huge overlap when you examine the physiological effects. Pleasure, love and bliss are generated by the same chemical.
I don't know of, first had or by proxy, another drug as gentle and wonderful as mdma.
It is my drug of choice, maybe once or twice a year because I feel it is unique in the ones I've tried. The risks are worth the reward.
Many substituted phenethylamines are psychoactive drugs, which belong to a variety of different drug classes, including central nervous system stimulants (e.g., amphetamine), hallucinogens (e.g., 2,5-dimethoxy-4-methylamphetamine), entactogens (e.g., 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine), appetite suppressants (e.g. phentermine), nasal decongestants and bronchodilators (e.g., pseudoephedrine), antidepressants (e.g. bupropion), antiparkinson agents (e.g., selegiline), and vasopressors (e.g., ephedrine), among others. Many of these psychoactive compounds exert their pharmacological effects primarily by modulating monoamine neurotransmitter systems; however, there is no mechanism of action or biological target that is common to all members of this subclass.
There is a bit of overlap on feelings but Molly isn't like straight amphetamines and opiates don't feel the same at all. If I had to try to correlate the feeling of these substances to sober feelings here is what I would say. Amphetamines are like the anticipation/anxiety of a big event or meeting a new love. MDMA is like being in love, but with everything and everyone. Opiates are like a really long, whole body, orgasm. Just pure euphoria.
Maybe after usage, life may seem dull in comparison.
I have a friend who does mdma regularly (like once every 3 months). Suffers from bruxism too. When he goes to the dentist, he can tell he's a mdma user.
You're free to waste your health as you wish (also mdma lowers t-cell rate in the blood, they never get back to normal afterwards, a japanese man taking multiple Es a day even died of immunodeficiency). Personally I prefer a good brewage of ipomea heavenly blue or some hawaian baby woodrose.
Edit: Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnptUdyDUKI&t=30m (timelink @ 30mins). It is said mdma is neurotoxic can induce permanent damages and trigger chronic depression. Scientist: "I think mdma like no other drug has a much higher neurotoxic potential". Then the dubbing voice takes over. Activates subtitles. "MDMA is a special case [among other ego distorting drugs]. It is delicate to give recommendation of use for this drug and if somebody asked me my opinion I would say it's best to stay away from it".
I’m surprised he lived long enough to die of that.
MDMA is associated with bruxism but generally not prolonged past the day you take it/day after. Most users wouldn’t take it weekly (I knew some who would) or even monthly, let alone multiple doses a day.
YouTube videos are a poor source of information, I’m afraid.
Once every 6 months max.
It can cause brain damage. Serotonin syndrome, depression and a whole host of things.
Yes, you'll grind your teeth while on it. (Not a year afterwards)
A hammer can also hurt you if you smash it into your face. A car will kill you if you drive dangerously.
It's a chemical. It can be used with a safety profile that makes the positive benefits worth it (like any drug or activity)
Responsible use of anything is important.
The thing is with MDMA is doing it daily won't produce the same effect each day. You run out of the brain chemistry it causes you to release all at once. There's an upper limit to frequency in exchange for pleasure and it is quite low.