It’s not just what you eat, but the time of day you eat it
washingtonpost.com
washingtonpost.com
Skipping breakfast is found to be slightly more beneficial than skipping dinner: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28490511/
Readily available caloric intake, in terms of human evolution, is relatively new. I imagine our ancestors waking up in the morning and going out on a hunt or foraging for something to eat.
Personally, I've been doing intermittent fasting (16/8) for roughly seven years. I (typically) eat between 12 - 8pm and sleep between midnight-ish and 8 am. I eat a half cup of oatmeal at noon, a protein shake and some kind of fruit at roughly 3-4pm, and (usually) do some weight training roughly an hour later, followed by another protein shake after and a more broadly nutritious dinner (vegetable heavy, often with a lean protein and little to no carbohydrates) somewhere between 7-8pm. On days with this schedule my first activity after waking is spirited running/leaping up and down a flight of stairs for a total of 10 round trips. Speaking of which...
When I do cardio it's in the morning fasted. I don't have any science to back it up but for me, personally, something happens doing cardio fasted. It's "hard" but the response from my body and mind is amazing. I can't help but think my pre-agriculture caveman brain feeds off of some kind of reward in eating after running a 5k. I (typically) do this once or twice a week and the mental clarity and general "feeling" of health afterwards is amazing. At this point a more typical (at least for Americans) diet of eating a heavy breakfast, snacking on whatever throughout the day, and eating shortly before bed seems like it would ruin me.
Even though I live in modern times my practice of running what is a relatively long distance (5k) before eating seems to be an incredible "hack" compared to more typical, modern patterns of diet and exercise.
From what I understand humans have evolved to run incredibly long distances relatively efficiently because much of our densest caloric intake (historically) came as a result of simply chasing down our prey until it essentially collapsed from exhaustion.
Even though I find that it "feels" more difficult running for my calories (at this distance) I actually end up with surprisingly good performance. I can't help but think there's some fundamental drive and resulting reward system that (subconsciously) thinks "If you don't beat the animal you're chasing you're not eating today".
I imagine something similar happens in terms of your enhanced senses for smell, being similar for foraging (and potentially even prey detection).
This seems to be normal and common when fasting. It happens to me personally and I’ve read comments from other people who experience it too.
- when I am fasting, I believe the hunger itself tweake smell and taste +100 (wonderful)
- if I am fasting, my nose is clearer - this could lead to a more mechanical reason that smell and taste are better
- hot foods accentuate smell and taste. Try biting a sandwich and then take a sip of hot coffee or water - you taste the bite of sandwich more
I've been practicing and developing my personal exercise and nutrition for well over 20 years. I've been around long enough to remember low-fat wars (fat is bad - just crank up the sugar!), cardio is best for weight loss (not at all), carbs are good, carbs are bad, high protein is good, now it isn't, now it's back, etc, etc. Like I said I appreciate the evolving science but developing a routine based on the latest "we studied 20 people and..." doesn't make much sense to me. Do I have it nailed? Am I a high performance athlete? No. What I do have going for me at this point is the fact that every indicator puts me in a high percentile for just about any physical and overall health metric. So I guess I have to be doing something right, right?
This is why I started with "studies that go back and forth". After the first two or three reversals from various studies and predominant thinking I realized I should just develop whatever works for me.
My high-protein diet and strength-training focused exercise program works for me. I essentially stumbled upon running while fasted because of my intermittent fasting schedule (which I love) on a few occasions where my life schedule didn't allow for exercise before the end of my fasting window. I more-or-less just started to wonder "Why is running long distances with no caloric intake in > 12 hours so exhilarating?"
I'm also generally aware that humans have been capable of feats such as running > 25 miles at a five minute pace (or less) well before modern equipment, training, and nutrition.
There have to be reasons for all of this, hence my theory.
Or that having the bigger meals earlier in the day is most important.
Or that splitting up your eating into more, smaller meals is better, the opposite of intermittent fasting.
In the end, I think the exact skew comes down to individual digestive systems and the only macro advice is "eat a bit less / eat nutritionally wholesome stuff / move a bit more / more sleep is better than less"
Cereal companies say that.
[1] https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/nutella-backs-off...
Skipping breakfast due to lack of money/food availability is a different circumstance than skipping it intentionally.
The only thing that works for everyone is - move more, eat less, eat more nutritionally, sleep enough.
Unfortunately the ability to do this is often tied to income / job status.
Most of the rest of these magic tricks only works on the margins, or to specific individuals.
Weight gain and bad sleep followed. Nowadays I make a game-like goal of "be hungry at lunch time". To do that I need to stop getting calories at ~6PM. I'll have just black coffee and water when waking up and lunch at 11AM.
I sleep much better, dental health and blood pressure have improved, weight is slowly going down. In addition I crave for stuff like broccoli, mushrooms and protein at the early lunch time - unlike the fries and pizza I desired before when eating a super late lunch at 4PM or so.
Later learned my current strategy is called intermittent fasting. Works great for me.
Beneficial in what way?
A couple of quotes from the article you linked: "In contrast, higher postprandial insulin concentrations and increased fat oxidation with breakfast skipping suggest the development of metabolic inflexibility in response to prolonged fasting that may in the long term lead to low-grade inflammation and impaired glucose homeostasis"
"Increased fat oxidation, despite higher postprandial insulin concentrations with breakfast skipping, suggests the development of metabolic inflexibility in response to prolonged fasting that may increase metabolic risk over time."
"Altogether, the present results support the association between breakfast skipping and disturbed glucose homeostasis, which is not explained by a positive energy balance."
This isn't exactly my domain of expertise, but it does not sound all that beneficial to me. Of course, something can be beneficial in one way and problematic in another. Further, I would caution against selectively reading a single article.
In a way that I won't be going crazy trying to fall asleep while hungry.
On the other hand, it's easy to skip breakfast - when I start to get a little hungry (say two hours after waking up) tea or coffee will avert that feeling easily. And feeling hungry is also much easier if I know a nice meal awaits an hour later.
All of this combined means it's much easier to not overeat during the entire day.
This is all personal of course, others might feel exactly the opposite.
Eat when you're hungry and be wary of restrictions.
Being overweight and diabetes are comorbidities of nearly everything, and are comorbidities of each-other for that matter. People are more overweight than ever. If anything there is not nearly enough alarm, and far too much normalization of the increasing status quo.
> Lots of people do in fact need to gain weight to become healthier.
Approximately 1.5% of US adults are underweight. Approximately 73.6% are overweight or obese.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families...
The only reason people treat statements like the ones you're making as obviously settled is because it plays into Protestant bullshit about being punished for enjoyment i.e. the worse it tastes the better it is for you.
The science of health vs fat is complicated, it's not some abstract moral tale of the gluttons being punished by god for their immoderate behavior.
Or how lumping the overweight and obese groups together is a great example of lying with statistics by gerrymandering the BMI quantiles that seem to be healthiest together with those that have the poorest health outcomes, and away from a group that was arbitrarily defined the better part of two centuries ago based on one person's aesthetic standards rather than any health indicators, most of which weren't even known at the time. In other words, it's the crux of a pervasive piece of statistical circular reasoning.
And the moralizing statements like "normalization of the increasing status quo" that politicize the issue, thereby making it harder to have a nuanced, thoughtful discussion about the topic, and instead push it toward always being yet another pea shooting contest between the "personal responsibility" and "fat positivitiy" caucuses. Which only serves to drown out any attempt to really contend with the full magnitude of the nuances and unknowns that surround this issue.
> as nothing to do with diet and everything to do with the accumulation of superhuman levels of fat relative to the conditions in which humans evolved
This is a religious belief. Evolution doesn't visit judgement on human behavor, and any number of things that we do now that we didn't do in the Stone Age fail to have negative health consequences. Some might even be good for you, judging by the comparative lifespans of prehistoric humans and modern ones.
Look, if you care about people losing weight instead of wallowing in the cruelty and definitely something that looks like jealousy (e.g. that happy feeling some people get when they hear that people who have sex caught a venereal disease) - if you really care, then the health consequences of crash diets would concern you. The consequences of repeated failures to lose weight would concern you. None of this would be dismissed if your concern were health instead of moral superiority.
Sorry for the accusatory tone. To preempt, I'm 6', 175lb..
edit:
> Or how lumping the overweight and obese groups together is a great example of lying with statistics by gerrymandering the BMI quantiles
This is the fucking worst because it's conscious dishonesty. It's intentional deception.
> there's some evidence that the health risks associated with increased BMI are partially an artifact of weight loss diets
which is misleading at best - there is a huge amount of evidence that fat accumulation directly leads to health issues.
I am not moralizing in any way, I don't see anything in my original comment which indicated I'm passing moral judgement at all. I am simply stating that the health consequences of obesity are well known, and the causal direction is clear - obesity itself causes health problems. Again, I'm not passing judgement here - in fact I find the common refrain "eat less, move more" to be an extreme oversimplification of the problem, and I'm well aware that diet change is neither easy nor sufficient to solve the obesity problem. I'm just pushing back on the idea that crash diets are what cause the primary health issues associated with obesity - it's simply not true, and there's a mountain of evidence to back that up.
When someone proposes a partial cause, then pointing out the existence of other causes does absolutely nothing to challenge the premise that there might be multiple contributing factors.
This is not a particularly controversial idea among health researchers. I've been casually following obesity research for decades now, and one of the big themes I've seen is one of scientists being frustrated at their inability to get journalists and popularizers to give a proper accounting of the level of nuance in the knowledge we have. Your use of the phrase "the causal direction" implies that your knowledge is informed by these same popular sources that perennially frustrate the research community, because a proper accounting of the science does not permit the use of a definite pronoun in such a statement.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC380258/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33882682/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5038894/
I would love to see any research you're aware of that would show evidence that crash diets cause significant health issues (I don't doubt that there are some diets that cause weight loss while being bad for health in other ways) but to suggest that the side effects of those diets compare in magnitude to the side effects of obesity itself is extremely misleading. If you have any reputable sources that provide evidence to the contrary I would be happy to read them, but I think you're misleading people, deliberately or inadvertently.
Maybe so, but like with all other evolution, presumably we'll either adapt or die?
Maybe fat accumulation via material prosperity is the Great Filter.
Citation needed.
Without fail when an article about health, weight loss and diet appears on hacker news these comments appear. Suggesting obesity isn't dangerous, and that we should be careful about addressing it due to normative standards, bias, demonisation etc.
In reality the severity of the impact of obesity on health is enormously underplayed in mass media - especially in the United States where are you admit there is a 'fat positivity' lobby.
There are lots of nuances around how and why this epidemic has happened. From food deserts to the promotion of fast food and high fructose corn syrup to shift work to sedentary lifestyles. But the impact itself is scientifically uncontroversial.
Sharing pragmatic articles about how to address this in our communities and our own lives is literally life saving.
I could link meta analyses about how strong the link between increased weight and CVD is as one example, but I don't think you're really looking to change your mind.
Instead I'll just make it as simple as possible. Increased weight = increased metabolic demand = more stress on the heart and other organs.
You could not say that you could do something if you don't plan to do it, and you could avoid blaming the person you're arguing with for your failure to produce evidence that supports your point instead. Try making it complicated.
but no. I really don't have to provide evidence that the sun is hot, that Washington D.C. is the capital of the United States, or that being fat is bad for you. I understand HN is for a technical audience, but in the nutritional and health field, this is an accepted fact.
Comparatively, less than 2% of the U.S. population is underweight. And even for these people, simply gaining weight by tricking your biological clock would not be a good advice either.
Therefore there is no "one size fits all" solution outside of the general "eat a bit less, move a bit more" guidance.
It's kind of like when they interview 100+ year olds for "the tricks to a long life" and it's just inane random stuff.
Also important is eating your food in a manner (e.g., smaller portions more frequently) that you don't ever get really hungry. Extreme hunger leads to binge eating which can easily undo any calory deficit you managed that day.
You do not. 100lbs is excess of 350000 calories "stored" and for every extra lb one's BMR increases. By the time someone is 100lbs overweight just to maintain that weight they would need to consume another gallon of ice cream every day.
You are playing with margins when you are 1-5lbs overweight.
Maybe in places of famine, but the target audience is western, specifically American. Emaciation is hardly a problem in the US. Obesity is. Two thirds of Americans are overweight or obese. Sure, it may not be enough to simply aim at weight reduction (most probably have bad diets to begin with), but weight loss is definitely important and healthy.
Reference needed.
Being overweight most definitely is a health risk.
What kind of risk exactly is then probably related to personal biology of each individual but I guess the list to pick from is quite long - diabetes, blood pressure, cholesterol, joint problems etc.
Ofc weight is not the only relevant metric but it is relevant still.
Yet, all I can ever find is how to eat in order to lose weight. Thus the two issues (health and weight loss) are conflated.
This is the easy problem to diagnose.
The connection between nutrition and health, if obesity is not your concern, seems indeed to be far more nuanced and complex. I'm not sure if anyone has come up with anything better that every expert could agree on except "eat little bit of everything".
I suppose fasting seems to improve biological markers even for non-obese people so it's not only about weight loss as such, though.
I suspect that this is largely due to the fact that industrial food owns the food science in this country, and in most of the developed world. For decades, we were fed (no pun intended) a Food Pyramid that is a blatant lie, because it correlated to how monied interests wanted to feed the nation.
I had my annual physical last week, and my doctor told me that the consensus is now "eat whole, natural, unprocessed foods as much as possible, and probably cut back on meat." That seems reasonable, on its face. It also seems prohibitively expensive for many people.
I'm afraid that there isn't a great solution to this problem in this country, almost by design.
This is obviously technically true, but it's like reading "domestic violence" and thinking "ah, this must be about women beating their husbands". Yes, both directions of the problem actually exist, but one is orders of magnitude more likely.
https://domesticviolenceresearch.org/domestic-violence-facts...
I grew up in rural Appalachia, and I can tell you that the most common response to someone, say, being called a stupid bitch, is not to channel the eternal words of Marcus Aurelius or to center ones self like the Buddha, as might be the case for your average HN poster.
Exactly, considering that in almost every societal metric that matters men do worse than women sexism against men is much worse, nothing symmetric.
Incredible how the same critic is never moved against women when engage in the same kind of Newspeak. Let's remember that "speech as violence" was not invented by men.
I'm sure given 7-8 billion people in the world this might be "true" for some value of "lots", but I'm curious where data backs this assertion for the audience for which this article is intended; where food is overabundant and mostly overprocessed.
It does: "Because of the way our internal clocks operate, our bodies are primed to digest and metabolize food early in the day. As the day progresses, our metabolisms become less efficient."
Later in the day, the food you digest sits around. Your body temperature is lower, you fidget less, your body performs less maintenance and repair. But the body isn't wasteful; it's still built to survive periodic famine. So, those extra calories that are just sitting around get stored away for later.
>> No. A few people. Very few. Lots need to lose weight to be healthier.
I thoroughly approve of the quibble though.
I feel like it's a personal preference and I only eat later in a day, but here[1] you may find some explanations on why eating in the morning may be better.
[1] https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-01-intermittent-fasting-...
"I encourage my competitors to take some really bad advice" simply becomes tiresome when the rest of the traffic has been pushed away and that's all that remains in the social media sphere.
Thanks for the downvote. That doesn't mean that doctors shouldn't tell their patients to lose some freaking weight if they're obese. Fat sympathy is a cultural problem. But also all the seed oils, sugars, and fakeness in our foods is another problem.
The USA obesity epidemic has been undergoing for decades. I highly doubt "anti-fatphobia" tiktoks are to blame here.
I’ve found when I eat big breakfasts, I eat things like eggs that keep me full for hours, so I just eat less later
Next; there's no details on why.
> "the study found that eating later caused the participants to burn less fat and fewer calories, and pushed their fat cells to store more fat."
This makes little sense.. unless the users activity level changes, the only other calorie burning I'm aware of is your base metabolic rate.. so eating later is possibly slowing down your metabolic rate?
This is typically how it's done though: if you were to make a subselection of the treatment group to only include those that adhered to the intervention then (a) you risk undoing the randomization, because people who are more likely to adhere to the protocol are likely different in other ways as well and (b) the effect size you'd report would be a best case scenario, not realistically the kinds of results a dietician would see when helping people.
It's explained in the paragraph right before the one you quoted.
>A look at their hormone levels showed why: Eating later caused their levels of ghrelin, a hormone that increases appetite, to spike, while simultaneously suppressing their levels of leptin, a hormone that causes satiety.
Although the article advocates for eating breakfast, I found what works best for me was skipping breakfast, skipping lunch, and eating a single meal a day, also known as OMAD (one meal a day). For me, this intermittent fasting routine started back in July 2022, when I initially starting experimenting.
Net result: lost 20 pounds and 5 months later, glad to report not only has the weight stayed off but my (fasted) glucose levels dropped to below prediabetic levels (i.e. 99 mg/dL)
The book “How Not to Diet” by Dr. Michael Greger has a section about this, referencing similar studies.
(Just ignore the Athletic Greens BS)
It's like they are genetically incapable of eating less and better and need to turn everything into a competition. This time against weight. "If you eat at night obesity won't notice, because it's sleeping!".
Apparently being the richest country in the World is not enough to afford healthy and quality food for everybody.
Doesn't matter when you eat,if you eat less calories than those you burn you'll lose weight. Yes, it will take time of course, but the good news is it's gonna last.
It's not rocket science.
edit: as an experiment, start by cutting a big chunk from your portions. Many say to cut in a half, it might be too much, reduce them by 30% for a month and see what happens. If you feel like you have no energy, eat a small portion of fresh fruit, for example half a banana, an orange or two mandarins, depending on the season.
Obviously Americans, who are also very touch when you point out they aren't perfect, took this personally.
So to lend them a hand, I'll leave this here, it talks about Samoans, who are not as easily offended.
https://samoa.un.org/en/130272-food-aplenty-poor-nutrition-u...
Why? It's no mystery.
From a very young age American children are trained to associate daily activities with food. Americans have a food for everything and that food is present, in abundance, wherever profit is to be had.
(Seriously, list an activity and I'll reply with at least one food pairing.)
Ask any dedicated American dieter how challenging it is to go out with friends or visit family without being put in multiple situations in which they are the only one not eating or eating something far healthier than everyone else.
This requires willpower of which no person has an unlimited reserve.
The basis for obesity is undeniably food addiction. How can we expect addicts to fight uphill against a system and a culture which has evolved to profit from their failure?
That's exactly what always amazes me.
I can't pinpoint when Americans started allowing themselves to eat unhealthy food to make someone else profit.
I never witnessed it anywhere else in the World, except poor countries where access to healthy food is hard or too expensive.
Of course it is not specific to USA, but nowhere it is so widespread as in the USA in my experience.
As an Italian with an Italian mother, I can totally relate to the obsession for food, I am in no way fan of the constant eating and talking about food all the time, while my mother's main concern it's the perfectly stereotypical "did you eat? and what did you eat?", she's been asking the same question everyday for as long as I can remember, but it's also closely linked to eating well and healthy.
What amazes me is that USA has all the potentials to be the best place in the World to eat, I've honestly ate better cooked pasta in some NY restaurant than at home in Italy, only problem is that it was unreasonably expensive, 5 times more than an expensive restaurant in the centre of Rome or Milan.
Maybe it's one of those things that the market cannot fix.
The quality of the food associated with these activities is probably a lot more significant.
I wonder if people who are paying attention to what they eat are equally as conscious about what they drink.
Freshly brewed higher quality looseleaf tea (no cheap supermarket tea bags) with nothing added is much less acidic than filter coffee.
Indication of a diet too high in carbs, leading to insulin levels being too high, leading to a crash in blood glucose, leading to feelings of cold and starvation. Which some people can, temporarily, white-knuckle self discipline thru, but most cannot.
My personal IF is based on not feeling hungry. Sure, I'm self disciplined and hit the gym and all that, but I don't need any discipline for my diet.
Self discipline is only useful for weight loss when food shopping, not when cooking or eating. I can't binge the entire pack of oreos if I don't buy a pack of oreos. And I don't feel hunger or hypoglycemic because I minimize my carb intake, which minimizes my craving for carbs.
If so many companies were not making so much money selling hyperrefined carb junk food, that stuff would probably be regulated as an addictive drug. Abuse of those products certainly kills people at a young age.
Checkmate.
This is pretty similar to sleep advice, go to bed and wake up at the same time, every day.
I read somewhere that when you do things at the same hour every day your body prepare for the activity. I can't find the link, but might be curious to know if there's any study to back it up.
During 2022 I relaxed my diet significantly, began drinking beer again, had a pizza here or there, and then gained 15 pounds of belly fat which gave me low back pain.
So in October 2022, I decided that I would go back to a strict diet. I am now eating almost only beef. I'll have eggs a couple of times a week. I'm cutting back on dairy almost entirely and I am currently in ketosis as a result.
I thought this had been debunked a while ago. Have nutritionists gone full circle?
There's a tremendous history of nutrition science being published with intentional bias. Only in 2005 when you must now declare any conflicts of interest have we suddenly had huge quiet zones. Evil things in our diets in 2004 suddenly not anymore.
There have been repeatedly conflicting results in studies of this subject.
I read a journal article saying the opposite to this one, just 2 weeks ago; how it's not how much you eat, but what you eat and when (protein and fats in the morning, carbs in the evening - which funny enough the article above actually denounces). It results in better sleep and as such, improved health and longevity.
Eat what you want, when you want, and provided it's not too much or too processed then you'll likely be validating one study or another. I wish click-bait diet article fluff would crawl back into the tabloid, gas stations magazines they crawled from.
That doesn’t seem to contradict the article. They both acknowledge that what and when you eat are important.
>Morning carbs are better than late-day carbs.
That's in direct conflict with an article I read just two weeks ago, when carbs in the evening where best.
Diet articles are always contradictions, regardless of source it seems..