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Comment by pfisherman | Hacker News Reader

Whatever your politics I think we can (mostly) all agree that widespread availability of location data from mobile devices is a population scale security threat. Today it may be someone you don’t care for. Tomorrow it might be you. It is always in someone’s interest to demonize whichever groups / tribe(s) we belong to.

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What threats do you imagine this poses? I'm not particularly concerned with immigration legal or otherwise, but a census of who lives in the US and whereabouts they are is pretty fundamental to having a functioning government. The creators of the US seemed to think so as it's one of the functions they outlined in the constitution.

What's interesting is that the article doesn't know how the government obtained the data in question. I don't know either, but I wonder, did they buy it from a private broker like anyone else could?

A census "By whom?", "By what means?", and "For what?", all seem relevant concerns in a general sense. No specific accusation necessary.

Having a census of residents who pay taxes and vote locally, which is required for a functional government, is quite different from real-time (or even delayed) location data from personal devices.

What if the government doesn't want to be functional?

https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/05/2020-census-u...

the article doesn't know how the government obtained the data in question

The Heritage Foundation is not an arm of the government, and I'm not sure why you though the government was involved in the collection of this data. The original report (linked within TFA) doesn't specify its methodology in any meaningful way, but it's well known that data brokers resell anonymized device location data and it seems rational to presume that it was purchased commercially.

Indeed, I got them confused with the US government for some reason.

Generally I agree that the issue here is apolitical, that, whomever might want to abuse the ability to buy up/acquire data, whatever tbe villains of the day- there should be checks against this creeping authoritarianism/survelliance-by-the-very-wealthy. Selling consumer data is too alluring & unimpeded.

But it is the least shocking thing I've heard that the Heritage Foundation is behind this effort, & astoundingly unsurprising this very-longstanding forefront-of-conservatism would be confused with the U.S.G.

The article does mention the government is involved in location tracking.

Under ATD, the federal government assigns “SMARTLink” devices to track the location of migrants after they are released from federal custody.

It may even be possible to request this data with a FOIA request.

Sometimes I feel like we're trying to stop the bulldozer by all this privacy regulations and rules. It can be slowed down, but cannot be stopped.

Would a complete openness be an alternative? Everybody knows everything about everyone? You wanna know what did I watch on pornhub yesterday? Be my guest, but I know that you were looking at this information. And you know that I know it. Perfect society, innit?

I don't know :/ Two pieces of content come to mind, tho:

> We were born on this [slippery slope], and we will die on this slope. It spreads infinitely in all directions, and where we choose to scramble to on its face is the task of our lives

SFP on "Slippery Slope" - https://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/issue-6/page-125-2/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnomon_(novel)

The setting is one like you describe. It's... well, it's such an absolutely incredible story that it's almost impossible to describe succinctly and accurately. I'd say one of the themes of the story is "what would it be like to live in a place like this, if it actually worked and worked well?". That isn't to say it's utopian, or that the problems and issues of the system don't exist or aren't talked about, but neither would I say it's about those issues.

Everyone opted into tracking, and we can opt out again too. I buy things with cash, and cash purchased prepaid debit gift cards. I do not own a cell phone.

Anyone who wants to track me will have to pay someone to actually follow me around which would cost more than anyone stands to make from the data they would obtain.

> Everyone opted into tracking

No, everyone opted in to using services. Tracking was buried in legalese in an unenforceable unilateral "contract".

> and we can opt out again too

Too little, too late, and unenforceable. You might opt-out of the ways you know are being tracked but there's hundreds of ways that you can be tracked without even knowing about it.

> Anyone who wants to track me will have to pay someone to actually follow me around which would cost more than anyone stands to make from the data they would obtain.

I'm not sure you understand just how much profit there is in controlling entire populations by monitoring and predicting what they do.

I am well aware of the profit incentives for my data, and selling manipulation as a service. It is why I opt out in every instance I have a choice.

I use Whonix for most personal browsing, I use 0 GAFAM services or products by surveillance capitalism companies, I do not own a smartphone, I randomize my wifi MAC addresses, and the majority of my transactions are in cash or anonymized bitcoin.

License plate plate cameras, facial/gait recognition systems, and airline tickets are about the only automated ways left to track me that I am aware of.

Except that the data they can review against everyone using prepaid cards can be consolidated into a database and reviewed. If 90% of these cards are used the same way, it's fair enough to assume you're using it in one of those ways. If they're wrong, meh, who cares?

I only use prepaid cards on rare occasion when I encounter a bar or a parking meter that does not take cash. Regardless my name is not associated with any of those transactions.

In general cash raises the least eyebrows and is reasonably anonymous.

Unless you live in a rural area, it's increasingly practical to track you and/or your vehicle by means of networked surveillance camera and automated analysis. It might even be that not having a device would make you stand out somewhat as potential malcontent. I don't disagree with your ethos or methods, but I'm not at all convinced of their sufficiency or scaleability, and think they place too much burden on individuals while settling for none at all upon those doing the surveillance.

Public transit, bikes, electric skateboards, and taxis allow you to move mostly invisibly in cities when required.

Also not having a cellular connection is not a burden once you learn how to navigate for yourself again, and know how to quickly find wifi when you need it. If anything it frees you from compulsive notification checking.

If people flag me as a potential malcontent and discriminate against me I am happy to turn it into an expensive media circus to raise more awareness. I am exercising my legal right to opt out of surveillance systems.

The more people that do this, the less we stand out and the more protected we all are. I do not even -need- to do any of this but I help provide cover for the people that rally do. People like me also make it harder for businesses to do away with cash, table pagers, paper menus, etc.

Do you have the right in your jurisdiction to request the data that data brokers have collected on you? If yes, and you haven't already, you may be surprised to the extent they have been able to track you in spite of your counter-measures.

I used CCPA to get this data from brokers. I am far more careful than most in my attempts to keep from being tracked, but perhaps not as careful as you. The dossiers contained data that went back to when I was 7 years old. The most surprising item was data that could only have come from a print shop (from fake joke business cards printed there, but never handed out).

I am in California and am currently shopping for deep-dive CCPA enforcement services as that is a lot more work than not creating the data in the first place.

Friends have used https://privacyduck.com with success.

I've just been working my way through various lists. It frustrates me greatly that the public is expected to do go through this effort to "opt out" rather than the sleazy stalker companies being required to get opt in.

https://oag.ca.gov/data-brokers

https://web.archive.org/web/20201022024035/https://www.stopd...

list of credit reporting agencies to freeze reports with:

https://www.consumerlawfirm.com/credit-reporting-agencies.ht...

There are 100+ agencies you need to file with, and you need to follow up several times as your data can be re-syndicated between them during grace periods. It is -lot- of work which is why efficient services who've optimized this are likely worth the money.

There's an old sci-fi story that touched on that.

People could buy short video segments of public areas displayed at random and the game was to randomly find pictures of themselves.

Of course, information is power, so that's why the police turn off their body cams....

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