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Comment by wazoox | Hacker News Reader

Actually after having tested a couple of other cars, for instance the Renault Megane, the BMW i4 and the Mercedes EQE have better enhanced drive assistance than Tesla. For instance:

* when in full-auto on a single lane road, when there's an exit on the right the Tesla 3 almost always slightly swerve towards the exit before coming back in its lane. None of the Megane, the EQE or the BMW i4 do that.

* To overtake a slower vehicle, the Megane and i4 are better : simply push the left blinker, then the car switch lanes and accelerates BEFORE having entirely switched lane, like a human driver would do.

* The mapping and charge planning on the BMW and particularly the EQE/EQS are arguably slightly superior now to Tesla (though Tesla is still a bit easier). Renault is very close, and Kia/Hyundai isn't far behind either.

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> The mapping and charge planning on the BMW and particularly the EQE/EQS are arguably slightly superior now to Tesla

Really? One of the main selling points for me is that the center screen in Teslas are actually usable, non-laggy POS like most cars these days.

It's not really surprising, the 3 big German automakers spent around 3 billion USD to buy (at least at the time) the best mapping product on the market.

I think everyone else just turns on CarPlay / Android Auto and forgets they have an infotainment system.

Aside from playing music and texts, I prefer the native functions in my Ford system, over the Android Auto.

Can you name a few? Ford's maps being better than GMaps would be very surprising.

I don't know what the general consensus is, but all I can say is that I prefer the Ford map. For one, it integrates chargers into route planning.

Which is great, except on a Tesla where you can't use them

Which can be a great way to save a few bucks in areas of the world that charge higher registration fees for vehicles that have built-in SatNavs. I've had no issues with Android Auto wrt navigation or music.

Ya, anyone have a video to back this up? For all of Tesla's woes, their mapping screen is above and beyond superior to any native GPS I've ever seen.

Tesla is far behind everyone else on navigation due to the simple fact that Teslas do not have Carplay. There's no Waze on Teslas, how can you drive without it?

But here's how the current Mercedes navigation looks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCgy3askMcM The AR stuff works really well and is arguably way ahead of anything Tesla offers.

Waze is not able to plan a route with all the charging stops you need. Waze is fairly bad in an EV.

Hard disagree on this one. I have both a 2021 Tesla Model Y and a 2021 Toyota Rav4 Hybrid. Overall, the Tesla system is much better than the Toyota Infotainment system. For example:

  * Tesla maps has a much better zoom/scroll feature (faster, more detail, smoother).   The Toyota map requires you to hit the "zoom" button and then click zoom-in/out

  * The calendar tool built into the Tesla allows me to easily navigate to the appointment location.

  * Tesla maps have way-point selection (set an additional stop between start and end) 

  * The Toyota Infotainment system does not appear to have a "night mode".  Thus, the display puts out a ton of light during night-time driving (even with the brightness level set to minimum)

  * Waze is way too "chatty" for my taste

Because of the above, I am forced to use Apple CarPlay in the Toyota because the default UI experience is so horrible. Overall, I like the Toyota (great gas mileage), but I much prefer to drive the Tesla.

None of what you listed is applicable to Android Auto/CarPlay, which is exactly what parent was saying. For Android Auto it is a $100 device to make the system wireless so you don't have to pull your phone out of your pocket.

Sorry, but the parent to my specific comment did not mention anything about Andriod Auto/Carplay. Their comment specifically said "Tesla is far behind everyone else on navigation due to the simple fact that Teslas do not have Carplay". I am pointing out this is definitely not true.

That's a deeply confusing interpretation. The correct reading is "Carplay brings better-than-Tesla navigation to any car."

Great, your Tesla has better infotainment than ... a Toyota.

> * Waze is way too "chatty" for my taste

You can adjust that.

I've used both Tesla and Honda's Carplay for ~2 years now. I really enjoy Carplay (and the phone integration is a huge plus), but a few things:

- re: waze - huh? Google Maps is just fine. The differences are such a personal preference that they are moot.

- The touch controls on Carplay are not great. Try pinching and zooming on Google Maps in Carplay and its awful. (note - I do think Tesla misses the boat on having more physical controls as they almost rely entirely on touch...which is unsafe and not great)

> But here's how the current Mercedes navigation looks

Looks awesome, but that appears to be on a €185k ICE car.

>- re: waze - huh? Google Maps is just fine. The differences are such a personal preference that they are moot.

Waze tells you where cameras and cops are, Google Maps usually does not.

>- The touch controls on Carplay are not great. Try pinching and zooming on Google Maps in Carplay and its awful. (note - I do think Tesla misses the boat on having more physical controls as they almost rely entirely on touch...which is unsafe and not great)

I don't think I've ever needed to do this, it always automatically positions the map correctly.

>Looks awesome, but that appears to be on a €185k ICE car.

Pretty sure the pricing starts at €94,540. They also have an EV at around the same price, but it's an all-around worse car.

> Waze tells you where cameras and cops are, Google Maps usually does not.

Cameras are only really relevant in Europe. We don't really have these in the US. I do get the cops angle - google maps doesn't really do this.

> I don't think I've ever needed to do this

Tesla uses google maps under the hood and its auto adjustments are incredible (as good as Waze). However, every once in an awhile you want to "look ahead" and the Carplay simply sucks for this feature.

> Pretty sure the pricing starts at €94,540

It literally says in the description:

PRICE OF THE MODEL IN THE VIDEO: 185.269 EUR

>Cameras are only really relevant in Europe. We don't really have these in the US. I do get the cops angle - google maps doesn't really do this.

Well yeah, in Europe we don't have cops on the roads. In the US you don't have cameras, but have cops everywhere. You still want Waze in either case, probably more so for the cops.

>PRICE OF THE MODEL IN THE VIDEO: 185.269 EUR

This has to be including local taxes, which in some EU countries can double the price of a car.

None of the infotainment systems on new EVs are particularly laggy anymore - BMW and Mercedes systems are quite good.

VW is the only one still shipping a piece of crock.

Mind if I show you my 2021 Toyota Rav4 Hybrid Infotainment system? Utter garbage. Slow, clunky, almost unusable.

> * when in full-auto on a single lane road, when there's an exit on the right the Tesla 3 almost always slightly swerve towards the exit before coming back in its lane. None of the Megane, the EQE or the BMW i4 do that.

A minor nuisance. Unless you happen to be at the ready attentively double-checking whatever the assistance is doing - then it must be infuriatingly annoying! Guess what you're supposed to be doing, all the time...

That's the point of assistance, it shouldn't need double checking by a human every time. It should just work.

Unfortunately, Autopilot currently exists in the liminal space where it should just work... Unless it doesn't, in which case it's allowed to kick out with no margin of notice time and the driver is immediately responsible for what happens next.

It's entirely possible that is an unsafe-at-any-speed configuration.

It's sketchy at best. Our newest car does emergency braking and that's it. And it's good at it, only engaging when there is a situation it feels (and is correct) about me not braking in time or hard enough. I shouldn't have to worry about it failing.

That’s the point of a Level 4 driver assistance system. Tesla’s Autopilot is 2 while Mercedes’ Drive Pilot is 3 in limited areas. Waymo is an example of a Level 4 system, albeit very limited in geographic area.

Someone tried to sell me a Tesla, and had me take it out on the highway to try Autopilot. The salesperson had the misfortune of suggesting I engage right when there was an exit coming up on the right.

It wasn't a great first user experience to have the car immediately drift right towards the guardrail crusher.

Any car behaving differently to a human driver is outright dangerous.

For example, motorcyclists depend on inferring behaviour more than the average driver. Someone swerving towards an exit is far more reliable an indicator of them taking it than a signal - many drivers don't bother using them.

Many bikers I know avoid Teslas like the plague, as they're deeply difficult to read at best, and lethal at worst.

Yowsa! Thanks for pointing this new hazard out! As someone who spends a fair amount of time on a bike in the city, I too depend on reading the body language of cars/drivers. You've given me something new and disturbing to think about...

> Any car behaving differently to a human driver is outright dangerous.

Any traffic participant (of any type) behaving sufficiently differently than the fat part of the bell curve for the situation (traffic, weather, location, vehicle type, time of day, etc) they are in is dangerous because they violate the expectations of all other road participants have for them. Other road participants need to be able to make reliable enough and accurate enough predictions of future state for things to work properly. This holds regardless of human or computer.

At least in the UK, this is why learner drivers have a clear sign on the back of the car ("L"), and people who have only just passed their test are encouraged to display a similar sign ("P").

THIS!

It is critical to be aware of the surrounding traffic, and recognizing the driving style — the wheel angle and the current balance/attitude of the cars — is critical to understanding what they'll do next.

Just one example a while ago in traffic on a highway, I slowed a bit and moved to the other side of my lane, barely thinking about it. Seconds later the car on my left suddenly drifted into my lane, right where we would have been and only feet off my front bumper. My wife exclaimed "How did you know that was going to happen?!?", and I said I'd just noticed in the corner of my vision an odd wiggle in their front wheel, like the driver's attention or direction was off.

Sussing out what a driver is doing with any intersection, regardless of their signals, is key. Are they actually setting up to turn or stop, or just going along ignorantly?

So far, I haven't yet noticed anything big from Teslas, but although I've done a lot less driving since COVID, I still have noticed that their road positions and attitudes are, ummm unique. But really good to know about this fake-move towards the exit lane — very helpful — Thanks!

> motorcyclists depend on inferring behaviour more than the average driver

And honestly it's less inference and more "I assume this person is going to try to kill me. How would they do so and how do I avoid that?"

I haven't ridden in years, but even in my car I'm allergic to being in someone's blind spot.

I 'd freak out for sure. How can you be cool with your car changing direction when it should not? And how can someone not pay attention? What will you do? Sleep? Read a book?

It tries to murder you from time to time too. This is at least a consistent glitch. I took a long road trip in a 3 with FSD and had I not been paying attention it would have sent me into a median once, and off to the ditch a second time.

Thanks, dad!

..and also the parking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsb2XBAIWyA

Wow that's a hell of a failure from Tesla. And the 3 others (Audi, BMW, Ford) just did fine.

> * To overtake a slower vehicle, the Megane and i4 are better : simply push the left blinker, then the car switch lanes and accelerates BEFORE having entirely switched lane, like a human driver would do.

Teslas do this in FSD mode.

My 2015 Seat did that too with cruise control enabled (well, minus sone stuff that is self-driving), but he did accelerate with cruise control enabled and auto-keep-distance).

No need to buy a $x FSD Tesla to get some extra.

My 2015 Model S does this, has done for a long time. No need for FSD, just Autosteer.

In Europe nobody ever buys FSD because the gimmicks are disabled for security reason (no remote summoning, no automatic parking). If that's the only feature that 7000€ buys...

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