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Comment by firemanx | Hacker News Reader

Read the article, and many of the comments here. I have a hard time squaring a lot of the hard and fast rules against my own experience. Certainly one persons life can’t detract from large scale statistics. However, I have 6 children. They have all responded to methods of behavioral training in wildly different ways.

My oldest two could not do sleep training. 10 months of trying for almost every night and they did not just adapt. My middle daughter embraced it after a single night. My adopted middle son didn’t need it at all and was naturally “good” at sleeping. My youngest daughter and son will fall asleep right away if around someone, but otherwise will stay up for hours (but never cried about it).

Again, one family experience but each child has their own needs and responses. I’ve never found a single method that works universally in any aspect of parenting.

Except ice cream. They all seem to love that.

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> fall asleep right away if around someone

this... with my first kid I didn't know how to handle, advice was 'to leave it cry to sleep', but it felt like torture to me, inhumane, letting it cry for so long.

A little baby just doesn't want to be alone. I discovered just sitting in the same room, reading something on my tablet was enough to fall a sleep after like 20 minutes, 90% of the time.

And yes, there are those nights nothing works. Just take him/her out, watch same television and have the baby on your belly to relax. A kid is not a robot, you can't expect it to go asleep when you say it's time for bed, there's no on/off button. I'm often amazed by parents who expect the kid to be tired at exactly 19.00 each evening.

That's not how it works, the first year is horrible. You as a new parent will be exhausted by the amount of not-sleeping you'll get, and the amount of attention the kid needs. Expect nothing less, things will get better when the kid grows older.

I think it is something of western culture to put a baby in a separate room and leave it alone, and thinking it feels comfortable and save and you can mind your own business.

> That's not how it works, the first year is horrible. (...) things will get better when the kid grows older.

Except when they won't. Our older daughter started having real sleep issues around when she was 1.5 years old. From that point on, every night was one of "those nights nothing works". Her sleeping schedule became quite consistent: roughly 21:00 - 05:00 if she didn't nap during the day, or 23:30 - 05:00 if she slept even as little as 15 minutes at any point during the day.

We went through pretty much every trick in the book. Less attention. More attention. Earlier supper. Rituals. Toning down lights an hour before bedtime. Music. Singing. White noise. We consulted a psychologist specializing in small children. But nothing helped - in fact, the more we tried, the worse it would get, with our daughter often going to sleep past midnight, only to wake up at 05:00 sharp.

Now I'm going to admit to something that's AFAIK seen as even worse than the "cry it out" method. Something I was very surprised wasn't even mentioned in the entire article. After half a year of unending torture that started to very negatively impact our marriage, in an act of desperation, we gave our daughter melatonin drops.

This solved the problem instantly. We all slept very well that night. And the next one. And the next one. Sleep again became something reliable.

Obligatory YMMV, IANADoctor, consult your pediatrician, etc. But the point is, every kid is different, and sometimes things don't get better (and it's very hurtful when others try to reassure you they will).

Glad this worked for you.

For our kids, they do sports. Heavy duty sports, since age 2-3.

Now they basically volunteer to sleep on their own.

Bedtime is not a drag. Its a priviledge. And Its glorious.

Every kid is different. But they are all energy machines. Starve the machine of energy, or use it all up, and the machine will go idle. .You have to find what sticks.

What kind of sports are good for a two year old, and how do you take them to the sports if both parents work?

You would be surprised what kids can do with a soccer ball at that age.

You do need a nearby fenced playground that attracts other kids, so you can work for hours without having to be in the middle of it.

Their self-service probably begins at earnest at 3 yrs, though, to be fair.

Before that, its all home playing.

But be creative. If the above situation is not for you, then a properly weatherized, large jaccuzzi is also a great option for an old toddler, particularly if you have a retired grandma or a nanny nearby that can watch them as a hawk.

A toddler, or really any kid below 8 yrs will not run out of things to do in a jacuzzi. Particularly if outdoor temp is above 75F

There will be the occasional crying from someone getting pushed while playing soccer, or scared and swallowing water because another toddler pushes the infant down temporarily. Activities that push kids to exert themselves do come with periods of difficulty. That's also energy-draining.

Crossfit. And bodybuilding of course.

Seriously, I had the same question when I read that.

Isn't bodybuilding bad for kids' growth in tallness? At least, that's what I read.

If one of your kids is male, then he might resent his lack of tallness once he reaches the reproductive age.

> Isn’t bodybuilding bad for kids’ growth in tallness?

Bodybuilding, as such, is generally considered dangerous for kids; whereas age-appropriate strength training is not (though even that is generally recommended for significantly older than 2, most sources I’ve seen suggest not younger than 6-8 to start.)

What counts as a heavy duty sport for a 2 year old?

You might be aware of the pathway that generates melatonin.

It begins with tryptophan, which can be converted either into niacin or serotonin. Taking a niacin supplement with tryptophan will boost the opposing pathway.

Serotonin is itself the source of all melatonin.

Adjusting diet is not as controversial as a hormone supplement.

Do not attempt this while taking an SSRI, which can be deadly.

> Do not attempt this while taking an SSRI, which can be deadly

Attempt what, taking vitamin B3 and SSRI antidepressants?

I think the op is talking about anything that helps create serotonin whilst taking a serotonin reuptake inhibitor is a bad idea and I agree....

I have seen the results of MDMA + SSRI when I was at a party many many years ago... The seizure that person had was full body ... All their muscles were tense... It was lucky we got them to hospital asap as they almost died (30 minutes to live the doctors said) and even at that point needed to be put in a medically induced coma for days... (I took this person to the hospital and heard the rest from the person's family)

Take before bed, or any time of day?

I mean melatonin is super safe and fairly effective. Definitely less suffering than crying all night for all parties. It's reasonable to assume a baby would like not to be miserable- so why not!

IANAD, I don't have kids but I'm curious why melatonin properly dosed would be seen as worse than crying to sleep. From what I've learned about melatonin it seems to me you did the right thing

because people don't know what effects that would have on a growing baby. (I'm not saying scientists but just random people)

questions that would worry them would probably be things like what if the baby start depending on them and their bodies reduce/ceases to produce melatonin naturally, and that this permanently affects the baby.

I haven't looked into the findings for theses kind of questions, but even if you look into it you'll also have to be condident of the reliability of the results. maybe it's harmless for adults but not for 2 year olds. Maybe the pediatrician you went to see didn't prescribe them for a reason.

Edit: a quick Google search in English mostly found positive articles about it, while the same search in french found negative articles warning about the potential risks like this one: https://www.vidal.fr/actualites/29656-melatonine-non-sans-da...

Because it's a chemical! A hormone! Because you're dosing your kid with a drug! You're taking the easy way out! You're using a shortcut to cover for your inability to endure the first few days of ${sleep training method}!

These and similar kinds of bullshit judgements.

While I reserve any judgement on GP’s use of melatonin to help their child sleep, I think the tone of your comment indicates a confidence in pharmacology that is difficult to justify, or at least betrays significant immaturity about the complexity of these sorts of decisions…

> I think the tone of your comment indicates a confidence in pharmacology that is difficult to justify,

Hey, being condescending about magical thinking and pseudo-reasoning does not automatically imply a special confidence in pharmacology. That said, I do have perhaps above-average confidence in pharmacology, based on some experience and paying attention to details. Much like scientific papers, pharmaceutical products have specific effects and ranges of applicability. If you're aware of those and the trade-offs you'll be making, then pharmaceutical becomes a very effective tool - one that works reliably and consistently, unlike magical / naturalistic thinking.

> betrays significant immaturity about the complexity of these sorts of decisions…

I think it's the other way around. The example responses I provided are, to me, how immaturity looks like in the reasoning department. A lot of complexity in these sorts of decisions is created by people giving such replies, as now parents have to also trade off effective solutions against being judged by others.

I think the argument is more along the lines of a lot of people automatically assuming something like this would be bad without any direct justification.

The same people that will then feed their kids heaps of antibiotics for a viral infection.

Well, no. Melatonin does affect things other than sleep. That said, you do what you need to do as a parent. I would only (silently) judge someone if they jumped right to that and kept at it. Messing with hormones should be a last resort, even if it seems benign.

Of course! My point is two-fold here:

1) "Last resort" doesn't mean "don't use, ever". A lot of the commentary on baby sleep issues would have you delay trying this until you've tried everything else repeatedly - or, in other words, indefinitely. But sleep deprivation of the entire household is no joke, at some point trying the same methods that didn't work again and again is just torture, and the negative effects far outweigh trying a hormone supplement.

2) Most advice around this topic is based on magical thinking, examples of which I included. Yes, bodies are complex, bodies of developing children even more so. Yes, hormones in general are hugely impactful and messing with them is dangerous. But it's not magic, it's not tainted by evil or something. We do have some idea about what the risks are.

The underlying idea behind the examples I provided (real and widely spread, unfortunately) is a knee-jerk rejection of anything man-made, of any intervention that wasn't available to our great grandparents, or their great grandparents. It's irrational and dangerous and annoying, and usually comes bundled with thinking in absolutes (instead of trade-offs).

I think this is born out of puritan ethics attached to counter-culture “pure” living. Essentially all desired outcomes must be earned through righteous, hard work. Anything short of this effort is cheating.

For me, it’s out of respect for the body’s natural methods of dealing with problems. Obviously there are some cases where it’s useful to interfere with the body’s processes.

But in general humans are extremely complex. We tend to think that we have a better understanding of things than we actually do. The human body does things that we still don’t understand fully, and unless there’s an incredibly clear understanding or benefit of some treatment, I’m hesitant to try to change it. Mostly because of how much I know that we don’t know yet.

If we don't know how the human body works, then surely we don't know that melatonin is better or worse for the body than not taking it. Perhaps it is worse, or perhaps it is better, but either way it has at least one positive effect.

They aren't bullshit judgments; they are concerns about unproven methods.

The primary concern is its (potential) effect on natural production. Most human hormone production is governed by the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis. Internal feedback loops suppress natural production for extended periods of time if exogenous hormones are introduced.

One of the most common examples of this is exogenous testosterone. If you take it long enough, the LH/FSH feedback hormones drop, the leydig cells in your testes atrophy and go dormant, and your natural production could be suppressed forever. Nearly all retired bodybuilders (and other athletes who use gear) are dependent on TRT for life, for this reason.

The open question is whether introducing exogenous melatonin to patients whose natural production is already very high (as it tends to be in children) could lead to lifelong dependency on it. That's the concern.

We are with you. Our ADHD boy. Oh how I remember this time!!!

It taught him to sleep. We stopped it on weekends and then slowly weened him off after 6 months.

Now at 8 he sleeps super well.

Thanks for sharing, and I'm happy it worked out for you and yours!

The implication in your response is, unfortunately, what both my wife and myself secretly fear. I've been diagnosed with ADHD as an adult (and after becoming a father); there's another diagnosed case in my immediate family, and at least one highly probable one. Given how highly hereditary ADHD is, we're afraid our daughters may have it too, and we're struggling not to read any unexpected behavior as evidence in favor.

It is very hard to get a diagnosis pre 6/7 but of course we can see behaviors and project our thoughts.

I feel you on the fear and knowing it’s going to be a tougher life.

Same with me at ADHD diagnosis.

> It is very hard to get a diagnosis pre 6/7 but of course we can see behaviors and project our thoughts.

We're not planning to get an early diagnosis. I feel it's really too early to tell for sure. We are observing carefully though, and carefully listening to feedback we get from daycare/kindergarten and various child development specialists. So far, we haven't heard anything that isn't somewhat common with children this age.

The "projecting our thoughts" bit is tough, however, as it happens automatically. I try to keep an approach of "assume it's normal at this age until proven otherwise" when dealing with her, and the idea that she could be having executive functioning issues actually makes me more empathetic when she keeps ignoring what we say or gets randomly distracted.

I have 2 with ADHD. One with impulsive and dyslexia and the other with inattentive. The dyslexia plus impulsive is quite a challenge but early identification is key. If we hadn’t made all the changes and waited till 10 onwards we would be in a totally different situation.

Keep going, try not to over analyze and courage!!!

Does she still have to take them?

Occasionally. Her sleeping patterns have regularized now - though off the drops, she's somewhat more prone to wake around 03:00 seemingly recharged, only to fall back to sleep around 06:00 and then be near-impossible to wake up an hour later - but at 3.5 y.o., we have some success in talking her back into sleep, so it's no longer a big issue.

The drops still come in handy in specific situations that we know will disrupt her sleeping pattern, but that too has become less of an issue. For example, it used to be that car travel in the afternoon would have her sleeping through the whole trip, and then refusing to sleep at night, and it would take a couple of days to get her back to the usual sleeping pattern. But in the last ~6 months, she stopped sleeping so much in the car, and learned to fall asleep if the right ritual is followed.

That's a coincidence, my daughter is 3.5 years old too!

The reason I'm interested is my wife is pregnant with our second. First four months our daughter slept all the time. 5 to 11 months was an nightmare. Then it settled down and she sleeps 8 to 6.30 most nights. I think we were lucky, especially after reading what you went through!

> That's not how it works, the first year is horrible. … things will get better when the kid grows older.

My first daughter would wake, have a bottle, fall asleep within a few minutes for 3-4 hours. Wake, bottle, fall asleep for 3-4 hours.

The first year was sooooooo easy. The 2nd year I wake, make bottle, hand it to her, she drinks and falls asleep.

She’s 4 now and can’t stay in a room alone during the day or night. That’s harder because now I can’t go toilet because she will scream at the top of her lungs until someone is in the room. But sleeping is me staying in the room for 5-20 minutes till she’s asleep.

I moved my child to his own room when he was past 3 years old. I had to, because a second child was coming.

Before that age, I also tried several times, but each time I gave up because he protested too much. It was just easier to let him sleep in the same room.

When he started sleeping in his own room at 3.5 years old he had to adjust psychologically. I had to convince him that monsters don't exist, or if he still believes they exist, at least that they can't get in because they don't have the key. I also got a night lamp for him so he would be less scared.

He would still get up frequently and seek me out because he was scared. The counselor advised us to put him back in bed and be consistent about it. If he gets up 20 times, put him back 20 times, no matter the protests. He accepted this after a few weeks.

I also told him that I won't stay until he falls asleep because I have to sleep too. I said I'll stay with him for max 5m, even if he's not asleep. After a few weeks and many protests he finally accepted.

Thanks for the info! Currently I’m in Taiwan staying with family and the plan is to move to New Zealand at the end of next year. Until then we have no space lol so daughter sleeps in her own bed next to ours.

But in NZ she will have her own room so that’s when she will need to adjust. I hope the 2nd one is easier. She’s only 4 weeks and wakes only twice a night to feed.

> I have a hard time squaring a lot of the hard and fast rules against my own experience.

I think it's the same thing like in other self-help sub-genres: any of such hard and fast rule will work very well for some people in some situations. That's why there are so many of such rules, why they're often mutually conflicting, and why they all have armies of evangelists behind them.

> Certainly one persons life can’t detract from large scale statistics.

Conversely, those statistics talk about what's average, typical. Some things have high enough variance that even most solid RCT only works as a guideline for policy at scale.

I have only two children, but it's clear to me both develop according to completely different trajectories. It kind of makes sense as, even if us parents didn't change in any way, and the environment stayed constant, our younger daughter is still spending a lot of time in the company of her sister. That's a huge additional high-variance input source :).

This. As a father of three kids it's sometimes fun to look at people going through this – you are the smartest person about kids if you don't own any yet and most stupid one with the second one if you realize that you can't reuse almost any knowledge you gained with your firstborn. By the time you have a third one, you've already accepted that they are all very different and you have to learn from them, grow with them and adapt.

I have two kids. I already have to parent both of them differently. It’s like being a first time parent all over again when the second one arrived. And strategies that worked at 2 years don’t carry over to 4 years.

So I’m always skeptical about articles offering generalized parenting advice.

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