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Comment by llamaimperative | Hacker News Reader

The real story of every tragedy that hits a reservation is that they all sit downstream of a horrific, orchestrated genocide campaign intended to destroy these people’s history, culture, and knowledge of self-sufficiency.

Put ‘em on the shittiest plots of land you can find, steal their children, ban them from speaking their languages and from passing their knowledge between generations, then we can sit and gawk at their 100% intentional and designed cultural death spiral.

Not to say that indigenous life was some suffering-free utopia, but it’s worth remembering their plight is not some emergent accident.

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I honestly wonder if the native Americans were (destined to be) screwed even before Europeans set foot in Americas. They were behind a formidable technology curve and I truly wonder would they have fared better if Japanese or Russian (or possibly even Chinese) colonists (the closest geographic candidate colonists) showed up.

Consider it as a thought experiment - something that's been popping in my head lately:

under what sort of ideal conditions would have the native civilizations and peoples of Americas been left unmolested by anyone? An entire continent left in isolation while the more technologically advanced societies reached the way station of 'universal human rights'?

[typically don't mention downvotes but a difficult question does not merit it. If you so strongly disagree, discuss it.]

If migration from Europe (and I suppose Africa) hadn't been unrelenting, then the natives would have gradually built up a modern-ish, defendable civilization. Maybe. It would have required some centralization of government as well, to prevent the divide-and-conquer tactics used against them.

Right, the question is precisely this: who would leave the juicy morsel of Americas on the table in the 15th-20th century historic range. The means and processes may possibly vary.

Just to be clear, even today in 21st you will note there are many global actors that deny the very notion of a "universal human rights". I'm not European myself and definitely not defending what happened. But it seems to me that what happened is an (inevitable) accident of history: two worlds that evolved in effective isolation for thousands of years. And I wonder: which of the relatively advanced societies would have left them in peace so they could catch up and integrate as you propose?

What happened to natives in America was anything but an accident https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY

I think you are not aware of the way the word “accident” is used here, or you are using its misinterpretation as a jumping off point.

Is that serious? Behind the technology curve is a massive understatement. They were thousands of years behind in nearly every area of development.

I wonder if the massive riches of nature they had for a low amount of people played a role in this

I think Yuval Noah Harari would agree with you. You may find his book Sapiens of interest.

The point you raise touches directly on the essence of my original comment (which should have been clearer):

When we think of the value-system matrix of the 3 co-evolving continents of Europe, Africa, and Asia, the core commonality that is specially distinct from the value-system matrix that evolved in Americas is in regards to notions of property and nature 'husbandry'.

Any vanguard explorers from the Eurasian civilisational matrix would bring with them the entirely alien notions of property and systemic cultivation of nature, and that would inevitably result in a confrontation of value systems, in which the technologically superior side would dominate.

The Russians did explore Alaska and interact with natives, but all they did was set up some missionary and trade posts. China explored Africa and then became isolationist. Japan was always isolationist until forced to open up by the US.

And not just Alaska, but California as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_colonization_of_North_...

Russians had to pass through the Caucausus and Steppes before they reached Alaska.

https://www.international.ucla.edu/apc/centralasia/article/1...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_Nogai_Uprising

https://fountainmagazine.com/1993/issue-2-april-june-1993/th...

(The Chinese are in the clear imo, so I parenthesized them.)

Yes, why aren't these people self sufficient after we took away all their means of self sufficiency? It's a real big mystery isn't it.

>Yes, why aren't these people self sufficient after we took away all their means of self sufficiency?

This sounds very much like "racism of low expectations". "These people" are just as self-sufficient as any other group of modern people of similar socioeconomic background. It's been 100+ years since they were mistreated in any serious fashion.

I come from eastern Europe and 150 years ago most of my ancestors were serfs, only a rung or two above chattel slaves on the ladder of human condition. If someone seriously suggested that well, what do you expect of these poor chaps, serfdom and all, I think I'd get quite upset.

Just food for thought about how both your phrasing and implications of what you're saying might seem to people who aren't from your background.

> It's been 100+ years since they were mistreated in any serious fashion

This is just patently untrue. Land is still being stolen, programs to help Indigenous people are still being cut. I dont think people realize how close our history actually is. There were still nearly 10,000 children in Native American residential schools as of 2007. The height of them ended in the 70s, which is barely 50 years away. Thats quite literally the parents of modern day teenagers and young adults.

These schools have absolutely decimated the population and culture of indigenous people.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schoo....

There’s a very real difference between mostly everyone being serfs long ago, and a relatively small, particular group being targeted by government sponsored economic/cultural/physical violence in your lifetime.

I live in Denver, with a very large Native population, and many still remember being taken from their families and being forced to speak English, while the rest of the country experience the affluence boom of the suburbs and such. Acknowledging that recent history isn’t controversial in those communities.

I come from eastern Europe and 150 years ago most of my ancestors were serfs, only a rung or two above chattel slaves on the ladder of human condition.

50 years ago a lot of their descendants in the Eastern Bloc countries were probably still in that condition or in the USSR factory worker equivalent.

It's true that university-educated intellectuals who have fled Eastern Europe after communism ended have, as a social class, done fairly well for themselves, but have you ever visited the... Less cosmopolitan parts of the former USSR?

It's not quite life-on-the-reservation out there, but it's not far from it.

They were never any good, and as soon as the planned economy stopped pouring money and work/busy-work into those areas, they all went straight to shit.

Lol you should learn a bit about the history of these countries. 50 years ago was the seventies. While not as confortable as in the west, its was far to be at the level of serfs.

Yes, learn a bit about the history.

In the USSR, peasants were essentially serfs. They only got internal passports in the 1960s and 1970s, and without those they could not leave the village without permission. They worked for a state collective farm, most of their pay came in just counting the "labour-days" they contributed - a totally self-containbed, essentially prison-like economic system.

So yes, I agree, I originally brought up serfs as being something from 150 years ago, but it was more like 50-60 years ago.

The original quoted statement in GP is a pretty common thing I have seen in younger people in now-prosperous former-communist central/eastern European countries. Minorities being subject to institutional racism in the form of apartheid, redlining and such is completely handwaved away and countered with "we had it bad under communism, but we recovered so why can't they". There are thankfully a growing number who don't think like this, but many simply cannot be convinced and will dismiss your explanations as excuse-making, or try-hard "woke"-ness. Hell, I've even encountered guys here insisting that because they're so non-racist they can use the n-word.

I think that many just don't know how widespread, deeply ingrained and recent much of this was - they think there was slavery, a bit of racism hanging around and then (in the USA at least) the civil rights act sorted things out and made everything equal. And that's really similar in nature to the comment you replied to - people have picked up a simplified and wrong version of history of Warsaw Pact countries and they're just a bit ignorant of the truth.

I really suggest you watch this video: https://youtu.be/A5P6vJs1jmY

You cannot really compare the successful genocide natives in NA to being poor in Europe.

> It's been 100+ years since they were mistreated in any serious fashion.

The last residential school (Where native children would be kidnapped into, to have the Indian, quite literally, beaten out of them) in Canada closed in 1998.

Yes, but this is very simplistic, since it's insinuating that the beatings for Native languages and other horrific mistreatment took place in 1998, whereas in fact that's not close to true, the worst evils of what we associate with Residential Schools ended many decades before the 1990s, mostly before WW2. Doesn't make them good or right, forcing kids into boarding schools based on their cultural background is very wrong even if there are no beatings or malnutrition.

This is exactly it. Many peoples suffered extremely bad histories (Jews, Armenians, Chinese under Communism etc) and rise to overcome it in modern day.

History is not fair but your actions yesterday determine your life today and your actions today determine your future. It is extremely damaging to sustain this culture of of course your life is shit because of what happened hundreds of years ago, nothing you can do

"100 years ago" is a weird way to describe "ongoing harm as recently as... earlier this year."

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/18/1081872135/native-americans-p...

Or the US government's uranium mining on Navajo land continuing to poison people today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining_and_the_Navajo_...

What does mine placement have to do with a community's ability to store emergency firewood where it's accessible in an emergency?

The same genocidal policies that enable resource extraction with complete disregard for local populations are the ones responsible (intentionally) for the abject poverty that renders these populations extremely vulnerable to weather events. Most Americans cannot comprehend that this level of poverty exists within their borders.

For example, these populations have to be spread across massive ranges of completely worthless land, making infrastructure extremely inefficient even in scenarios where they have the financial means to invest in it whatsoever (which is also rare for all the same reasons^)

Well, that example was about a Navajo community. Quite a long way from the Pine Ridge rez. Very different people and culture.

They gave that as an example in response to the claim that the abuse of natives is historical and not actively happening. While it is not directly damage done to the occupants of Pine Ridge, it does demonstrate that the sort of injustices that destroy native communities are still occurring.

Or what you're comparing is a largely successful genocide (American natives) to either a non-genocide (yeah history was mostly poverty-stricken) or unsuccessful genocides (various groups in Europe).

"their languages" were recognized as unique and useful in 1950s. https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/american-indi...

A nice cop out. Are you saying those on the reserves are generationally crippled beyond reproach? Are all cultures stuck in wintery conditions facing the same issues and if not, why?

Even though it's not technically wrong, but I also don't see how viewing a people (or worse, viewing yourself) as a perpetual victim is in any way useful. There's no rewriting the past. Saying "I'll never amount to anything because of what happened 50, 100, 200 years ago" denies your agency, and thus a fundamental aspect of your humanity.

Some people seem to think that the bigotry of low expectations is "social justice".

Put someone in a village 100 miles from the nearest town, deny them the basic infrastructure you provide for everyone else, deny them proper education, skimp on government job programs provided to other struggling towns that would eventually lead to wealth flowing in and free enterprise, and let this wealth divide grow for decades and you’ll see you’ve successfully made a hole to trap people in.

It’s not bigotry. Even if you want to ignore the centuries of active destruction of their families, the infrastructure gap is huge. Take a look at, say, the difference between Japan and Vietnam. Both got absolutely leveled by the US. One of them had infrastructure rebuilt by the US and investment in local enterprise by the US government. One is a rich country. One is a very poor country that’s only recently rising up… because other people are coming in and helping build infrastructure and providing jobs for a people who were crushed and isolated from the world for decades.

There’s a wealth and basic life standard gap that is impossible to bootstrap. Any successful place built from “nothing” got there through getting outside investment in some form, or through centuries of time left to grow through their own means. Plus their lands continue to be exploited. When oil or water or something is used by an outside company, instead of letting them have it and enriching the people on the land, eminent domain is exercised or companies buy it from the gov for pennies.

The point isn't "are they poor?" or "why are they poor?" but "how do you lift a community out of poverty?".

There are many poor communities across the country, in all races and creeds. The past can't be rewritten- focusing on "you are poor because X happened in the past" is just telling someone there is no reason for hope.

The way out involves both external and internal forces; external in the sense of support for development of infrastructure and economic activity, internal in the sense of a willingness and belief of capability of change. Many tribes who have successful casinos don't see significant improvements depending on their payout structure, because simply giving money to people with no financial literacy is a recipe for loss.

This is true for all communities facing poverty.

Also because a casino isn’t infrastructure. A casino is the equivalent of building liquor stores and calling it a job well done. Amidst a thriving economy it’s fine. Otherwise it’s making a few wealthy at the cost of community health.

Casinos are a way tribes found to generate wealth as an exception to state laws. It’s one of the very few possible “true” bootstrapping examples. But no healthy community is dominated by casinos.

> There’s a wealth and basic life standard gap that is impossible to bootstrap.

USA southern border is over-run with poor people trying to get in. I wonder what is different for these folks?

I’ve just explained what’s different. A successful genocide campaign carried out over centuries that has slowed but not stopped and certainly not reversed course.

Many of those crossing illegally are also descendants of repressed peoples, either African and / or already native at the time of Spanish settlement. They come from communities facing brutal repression, either at the hands of government military or drug cartels.

You seem to view the world as if any of these problems are unique to America.

Well yes, the problem of being targeted by a centuries-long genocide campaign carried out by and within the borders of the wealthiest and most advanced nation on earth is, in fact, unique to American indigenous peoples.

I'm not saying "bad things only happen to native Americans." I'm saying "the American campaign of genocide against native Americans only happened to native Americans."

At this point you seem to be willfully ignoring the numerous modern day examples of injustices perpetrated on these people. This is not some long-gone history. As mentioned in other threads, governments kidnapped native children as recently as the 1970s. They showed up to houses, stole children, shipped those children to boarding schools to be raped, tortured, and killed en masse - optimistically to be brainwashed out of their culture. Governments are continuing to wrestle natural resources from tribes as recently as today. Right now. Across the entire country.

While Vietnam is a poor country, the quality of life for those who make $200/month is still good. It doesn't have the overtime or societal issues that Japan has. Vietnam has a better trajectory for its population count and does not face stagnation. What's the point of being a rich country if your people are broken inside?

I know you're saying that countries can't develop themselves without external support, but I'm not convinced that a richer country = better quality of life for people which is an assumption you made.

Vietnam very much has overtime issues. Americans work more hours than Japanese. Many Viets work 6 days a week at typical office jobs which is more than both countries. Vietnam is currently rapidly trending to under replacement-level births.

I chose those examples because I’ve worked in each, but hours worked and birth rates really aren’t too relevant here. Vietnam was a nice country, but be honest: you wouldn’t want to live there making an average wage if you had a choice of living in a typical US or Japanese town with decent infrastructure and average wages.

The trapped individuals are living are living in a location where these sorts of conditions are extreme. Prior to climate change they may have been unthinkable.

People with limited resources don't devote them to mitigating once in a lifetime risks. Their everyday life is constrained: buy a more reliable car vs. save for a child's education. Eat healthier food vs. visit the doctor.

These Native Americans live in a vulnerable location that provides little land-based wealth, isolates them from population centers & thus opportunity, and exposes them to environmental threat.

If you can't see how that impacts their opportunity to "amount to anything," I suggest relocating. Become their neighbors and report back in 10 years whether you think this had any deleterious impact on what your career has amounted to.

The first paragraph is absolute nonsense. This storm is an outlier, for sure, but winters have on average been getting easier, not harder, in the upper Midwest.

> Prior to climate change

Now climate change in winter makes wheel loaders not function properly and people are too cold?

No, my argument is that this is ongoing.

The moment something of value is found on native land, even today, it’s taken from them.

Pine Ridge has unemployment of 80-90%, median income of $4000/year, and life expectancy of ~50 years. Many people live without electricity or running water.

I don't know that people who live there say "I'll never amount to anything", I don't think any of us participating in this conversation live there; probably none of us are natives. So we're not talking about what they say about themselves, we're talking about what we say about them.

If not the legacy of expropriation, displacement, and cultural destruction... the usual explanation is that there is just something wrong with these people as people, something diseased, pathological with their culture. I don't see how that is in any way useful, or somehow more respectful of "agency".

Up until the 70s, children (children!) were still being forcibly sent to prison-like (for real, prison-like) boarding schools.

https://archleague.org/article/cheyenne-river-reservation-bo...

I don't think there is anything wrong with Oglala culture -- I think they have the cultural and personal resources they need to thrive if conditions are changed to make up for generations of intentional targetted destruction of their material resources and cultural life and social networks. "Social justice" would be restoration of sovreignty, reparations (a massive "marshall plan" level of physical and human infrastructure investment), an apology and general cultural recognition and education throughout the USA of native history, legal enforcement of treaty rights that have been ignored/thrown out, etc.

While it's a situation with great differences as well as similarities, New Zealand's reparative policies toward the Maori can provide some models. https://www.justiceinfo.net/en/79224-new-zealand-leads-way-r...

Blaming the Oglala Lakota people for the result of generations of targeted destruction of their way of life and ability to survive is not somehow more respectful of their "agency" or dignity.

Like, what are we actually talking about here right now? The lack of capacity of people on the Pine Ridge reservation to handle a weather emergency? How is it more respectful of agency or dignity to say we shouldn't talk about how this is the result of generations of colonialism, that intentionally removed the material and cultural resources people would use to take care of themselves? Is it more respectful of agency or dignity to suggest that they are the poorest community in the USA because of their own cultural failings? I agree that liberals as well as right-wingers can pathologize native culture, suggest that their culture is broken and needs to be "fixed", that the problem is internal -- I think suggesting that there is something wrong with native culture is what is disrespectful of their actual dignity, agency, and continued ability to survive under conditions designed for the opposite. They are very strong people, the evidence is that they are still there, and I hope they think of themselves thusly.

My girlfriend's mom went to a boarding school. The abuse she experienced as a kid still affects her and her family.

They are people warehoused in obscure rural areas with subsistence support.

They get enough to live not enough to thrive. The federal government provided healthcare, for example, but funds it in such a way that they run out of operating funds in month 10 or 11 of the annual budget.

Like most people in this sort situation, the malaise takes over. Alcohol and drug abuse is rampant. Opportunity is nil. Breaking out of the cycle is very difficult and requires an individual to have the right combination of luck, street smarts, ability and ability to walk away that is hard to find.

Hmmm, nope? I’m saying that these particular people had very particular things done to them intended to yield exactly these particular outcomes.

More like everyone who can escape does; this obviously only leaves those who cannot escape.

> Are all cultures stuck in wintery conditions facing the same issues and if not, why?

The person you're replying to explained why: We did it to them on purpose to wipe them out.

> We did it to them on purpose to wipe them out.

"we"? I wouldn't be so presumptuous.

You did not. The society that you are a part of did systematically disassemble their society and slaughter any resistance.

So “we” got our trains, oil and highways, and turned the Great Plains into one of the great breadbaskets of the world, at least for awhile. Unfortunately the depletion of the aquifers will leave those same plains a desert from an agricultural perspective in many of our lifetimes. Maybe when that land is worthless to society again the Sioux will get it back.

Once again, you’re making a lot of assumptions about the person you’re replying to.

That or you're just choosing to unfavorably read the word "we" as if it refers to you specifically, instead of to the poster and their cultural, racial or national group, in order to avoid engaging with the substance of their post?

This this this this this this this this. ZERO coincidence that this tragedy happens on a reservation.

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