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Comment by psychphysic | Hacker News Reader

For me the benefits far outweigh the increased wear on the engine.

I don't really need my engine to last 400k miles like it can in perfect circumstances.

I need fog free windows, be comfortable driving the car without gloves on making the steering slip. To be able to focus on getting around and not shivering.

I don't drive these days but back when I did those were all issues I had for my 5am start getting to work. And far more a concern to me than the engine losing some longevity (which I could make up for just by proper care few people do anyways).

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Exactly

I love how some people get precious about cars and engines, something like "if you idle it for too long you're shortening its lifespan" and even if it's moderately true my answer would be "Yeah, so what? It's a clunky block of 19th century technology, who cares?"

Yeah sure, you don't need it to sit idle for something like 30 min, just wait for it to get a bit warm then drive away. Worrying about this will cost me more than not worrying.

Agreed. Crashing because windows fogged up again is also detrimental to the engine's lifespan.

> I need fog free windows

Personally I can't drive with ice on my windows. Can't really see outside and I'm pretty confident that's illegal. Like 80%, but I'm not a lawyer.

You will definitely get a ticket here if a cop sees you driving with windows iced or fogged up (which you should... it's a serious hazard to you, other drivers, and pedestrians).

Unless you have been driving for 2 hours you will probably have some ice on your windows some days here in MN.

100%: Driver must keep the car in state of driving - or something like that - It includes everything.

On most mornings my windows will fog on the side I just cleared before I can get the other side clear. I clean my windows, and then a couple miles down the road they clear up, otherwise it's will be a while before they are clear.

> I need fog free windows

You don't need to warm the engine much to get that. It will clear up even with cold wind blowing on it.

https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/3174/which-i...

That specifically talks about using the AC, because it's dehumidified air. The AC also requires the engine to be running, so blasting the windshield with hot air or air-conditioned air will require running the engine for roughly the same amount of time.

I don't know about your car, but it takes less than a minute to defog my windows. I don't think anyone is claiming that running the engine for a minute is bad.

It was -15 degrees F the other morning and the inside of my windshield was ice. It took far longer than a minute to clear. Also took far longer than a minute to reach a tolerable temperature, even in decent garb!

Yeah; this is going to depend heavily on local conditions.

Try ice on the inside of your windows.

I don't want to be That Guy[1], but an EV can run the climate control, warm the car and defrost the windows with absolutely no maintenance worries at all. Teslas can do it remotely while you sip your coffee or pack up your ski gear.

[1] I totally want to be That Guy

I am the guy that preheats his Honda to perfection. I will fly like a bat out of hell out of my front door in my boxers to start the car and run back inside to get ready for another 30 minutes. Yes, I am a total badass.

I’m not worried about maintenance because that is a fact of life. For Tesla’s too (mostly defects).

If your car breaks down shortly after you start driving it and the cabin is ice cold you’re in trouble. At least in a rural area.

> I will fly like a bat out of hell out of my front door in my boxers to start the car and run back inside to get ready for another 30 minutes.

You might want to look into a remote starter accessory. I had it in my last vehicle to start the AC (I live in a warm climate).

This is a real important point - many drivers in the cold aren’t dressed for it at all and though even many rural roads will have someone pass by relatively soon a warm car is going to be nicer.

Of course anyone driving in freezing areas should have winter survival gear but who actually does?

Since having kids, always. I’m not particularly fussed about my comfort, but I really don’t want to have to walk a couple miles carrying an underdressed two-year-old (or leave them in the car).

Also, wearing heavy jackets in a car is just damn uncomfortable.

Especially since about ten minutes in you’ll be boiling and opening the window.

The cold still damages your EV’s battery. It is still, after all, a lithium ion battery.

The battery is heated to avoid that damage though. Nothing does this in an ICE car.

Some ICE cars have block heaters for this similar purpose.

While true, how long can the car heat the batteries before it's practically unusable because the battery has depleted so much you need to charge it again before driving to work? Not everybody has a charging port at home, especially in Europe.

I lost a couple percent per day when leaving my car parked in 10°F weather. It’s about the same as enabling sentry mode.

If the car is plugged in– even to a typical 120V wall plug– it’ll charge and warm the battery even in single digit temps.

Heating a 75kw battery up from -17F to 77F uses about 3kwh. So about 3-4%.

This is not a significant concern, frankly.

Since you likely have it plugged in while it’s at home. Perpetually.

What is the approx. power draw when the car is plugged in, fully charged, and the ambient temperature is around freezing?

Interesting that you think about it that way. My primary goals are the opposite:

1. To save as much money as possible. Meaning to make my car last as long as possible, postponing the need for repairs or a new car as long as possible

2. To reduce energy usage as much as possible. Not only to save money but also because it's good for the environment.

Which means I do exactly the opposite of yours. I'll to go great lengths to avoid turning on the car's heater. So I put on thicker clothes, I dry foggy windows with a towel, within the city I drive electric as much as possible (I have a hybrid), etc. I brake as little and as smoothly as possible to avoid kinectic energy being lost to braking (or if I do need to brake, at least have renegerative breaking recover 60%). All of this much to the chagrin of my wife who doesn't value such things at all. Or the guy behind me who's annoyed at the fact that I stop maintaining speed 100 meters away from the red light, instead of maintaining speed until 20 meters away and then braking in 2s.

I have the feeling that people like me are rare. It seems that when it comes to cars, nobody around me cares about saving money or saving the environment, they mainly care about comfort.

Are you aware not using the heater does not affect fuel efficiency in an ICE car? Heaters in ICE cars take the pull existing heat from the engine.

(I'm not aware of how your hybrid is programmed, it may or may not turn the engine on sooner if the heat is on.)

Letting off the gas 100 meters before a stop light and coast that will save gas, but of course it won't be more efficient to brake for the 100 meters before a stop sign, except for regen, as you mention. And is indeed obnoxious for other drivers if you are braking way before a sign.

Hypermiling is a good idea, but it's a trap to to slip into an orthorexia-type mindset about efficiency - imbuing virtue into deprivation. Going to "great lengths" to not turn on your car's heater, in addition to being 100% pointless if your ICE engine is running, is an asshole move if other people are in the car. I think it's worth it to fight the feelings of superiority you allude to in your last sentence.

I say all of this as somebody who thinks 95% of drivers would be best served by a Prius or Leaf.

> Are you aware not using the heater does not affect fuel efficiency in an ICE car? Heaters in ICE cars take the pull existing heat from the engine.

It does in many hybrids, particularly those that can operate in EV mode at higher speeds. When heat is commanded, they often will idle under even under no load conditions just to maintain coolant temp. These are conditions which otherwise would use zero fuel.

A fun party trick in my hybrid is that I can turn on and off my engine during the winter at a stop light by using the on/off switch for the climate controls. It’s instantaneous.

Seconded by a plug-in Prius owner.

Sadly the climate control pre-conditioning on the PiP only uses the battery (or mains, if left plugged in) to cool the interior before you set off, not to heat it. I guess this is because it doesn’t have reverse cycle AC, so can’t pump heat into the interior, only out of it. Far less useful in the UK than California.

So if you want heat, you have to run the engine.

Turning on the heater reduces my electric miles by a factor of 3. More energy is spent on heating than on moving.

> I think it's worth it to fight the feelings of superiority you allude to in your last sentence.

In every other thread about climate, people hyperventilate about the doom of climate change. But when I try to do my part, it's "100% pointless" and is characterized as merely wanting to feel superior?

This to me sounds like people want to be cynical while at the same time not wanting to do anything about it.

> I'll to go great lengths to avoid turning on the car's heater.

You know, heat is a byproduct of the combustion process…

—edit—

And these people who won’t turn on the AC to save gas end up messing up the aerodynamics and making the vehicle less efficient while also suffering.

Yes so? I'd rather want that 30% energy to be converted to kinetic energy, than 0% energy being converted. What's the point of using a car as an immobile heater?

I'll turn on the heater once I'm on the highway, not before.

I used to be the same way too but in warmer weather I would try not to run the A/C in my car. I think that kind of turned out to be a bad decision though because my car was older and by refusing to turn on the A/C, I think that might have made it more likely for the system to get messed up. I don't know the exact reasons, but maybe it has to do with the lack of pressure and the coolant not circulating.

I appreciate what you are trying to do, but there is a 0% chance that I put on a thick sweater instead of just using my heated seats.

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