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Comment by zackkitzmiller | Hacker News Reader

Nearly every modern gas vehicle has remote start, and has for years. This isn't an EV feature.

Wow. That would be "nearly every modern gas vehicle in north America".

Seriously. Running a cold petrol engine under low load in freezing conditions only for heating i just simply a bad idea. Never understood how this is even remotely OK in the US. This is illegal in most of Europe. And for good reason.

If it is around Celcius -40 then you would never turn off the vehicle. And a bit over that - there is always the Russian option of having a large candle below the oil tray (bad english, but you get it... under the engine) for pre heating. The more mainstream option is plugged in electric heating of coolant water.

I remember from my days in the Swedish army that there was a pre heating scheme for the drivers where specific spots on trucks APC's and such should be heated by gas light.

Usually it is sufficient to start the engine, clean the windows from ice, and then get going. A short engine running time without load for letting oils and fluids melt is only sane. Actually heating the cabin is nothing but wasteful.

>Wow. That would be "nearly every modern gas vehicle in north America".

>Seriously. Running a cold petrol engine under low load in freezing conditions only for heating i just simply a bad idea. Never understood how this is even remotely OK in the US. This is illegal in most of Europe. And for good reason.

My German BMW 7 series definitely had remote start (and an auxiliary heater too). Maybach GLS has an auxiliary heater.

These are hardly uncommon features in vastly cheaper cars either. Various Webasto systems have been around for ages, often installed by OEMs.

In Canada, electric block heaters for the engine are fairly common as well: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_heater . Similar concept to fire under the engine, but a bit more modern

> Actually heating the cabin is nothing but wasteful.

Americans value comfort and they get it. Europeans want it too but they can't afford it (taxation and energy scarcity)

It's to do with safety, not economics. Remote start on a combustion vehicle presents a carbon monoxide poisoning risk. This is perhaps more significant in Europe where more people park indoors and in confined spaces.

Pretty much any EV in Europe has a remote cabin heating feature. If it were about energy and economics, wouldn't that be banned also?

If you are parked indoors you don't need remote start. Our garage stays about 32F degrees even when it is -10F out. The entire point of remote start is for the case when you are parked outside, such as at work.

Sure, but is the car actually smart enough to detect when it's indoors and block remote start? Many countries ban or restrict remote start features due to the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning.

In any case, not all indoor parking is climate-controlled. It's nice to be able to remotely warm (or cool, in summer) the cabin to a pleasant temperature before you arrive! 32F is still pretty chilly.

> Pretty much any EV in Europe has a remote cabin heating feature

Surely pretty much any equivalent gas car remote cabin heating too, it's a very common feature.

> "Surely pretty much any equivalent gas car remote cabin heating too, it's a very common feature."

Remote cabin heating in a gas car requires a "remote start" feature, which is illegal in many European countries - particularly Germany. This is not a common feature in Europe, except in EVs.

Not sure where you’re getting this info from, but it’s wrong. 1) remote start is not required 2) auxiliary heaters are very common

No it doesn't. It just requires an auxiliary heater, which has been a common feature in cars sold in Europe for at least 20 years. It's a feature you can find in cars sold during the 80s, like the W214.

> This is not a common feature in Europe, except in EVs.

It's a common feature in fancy cars and has been so for ages. Most EVs definitely fall into the fancy car category.

Fair point, but what, maybe 5% or so of gas cars are fancy enough to have a fuel-burning auxiliary heater in Europe? (not just Scandinavia)

Where as most EVs have a "remote HVAC control" feature - even the pretty basic ones. And EVs, of course, will cool the cabin in summer time as well, something that an auxiliary heater can't do.

It's definitely much more than 5% of new ICE cars.

Across all of Europe? No way. No cars sold in Southern Europe have this, and afaik it's rare (at best) in the UK. In Scandinavia? Maybe.

But aren't most premium new ICE cars in Europe now (mild) hybrids anyway? Why not use the big 48V battery to power an electric aux heater? Surely way cheaper, simpler, and less dangerous?

For $30-40 you can buy a block heater. They are a very nice to have in cold weather.

https://www.amazon.com/KENUOS-Thermostat-Self-Adhesive-Dipst...

> the oil tray (bad english, but you get it... under the engine)

It's almost perfect English -- it's called an oil pan ;-)

Running the engine is a very inefficient way to heat the oil (sometimes requiring a plug-in _electric_ engine block heater if it's so cold the bearings and rings would be insufficiently lubricated to start), and doesn't work at all to warm up a gelled tank of diesel. It's ridiculously inefficient to try to cool the cabin.

EV heating and cooling is far superior to warming up a gas vehicle.

A big difference is that while an EV is sitting plugged in, it can heat itself from wall power, rather than burning gas to do it.

It's called a block heater and they have been in use for many decades in cold climates.

Block heaters don't heat the cab, so it's still uncomfortable

Not directly, but the warm water in the block will mean that at least some heat is immediately available once you start the car. The main benefit of block heaters is not in heating the cab, but heating the engine itself so that it's actually possible to start it.

That aside, never understood the value of "pre heating" the car interior. If it's that cold, you're wearing a coat and gloves (or should be). Start the car, drive off, and you'll have heat within a few minutes.

The value is not having to wear all that gear while driving, and just comfort generally.

Living in the bay area it's nice that the Teslas have this capability to warm the interior from 55 to 70 before I get in the car. It means I can leave the house in a t shirt in the morning.

If you're driving around in subzero weather without a coat, gloves, and preferably a few blankets in the car, you're asking for more trouble than I am.

You can have them in there, but not wear them!

It’s kinda a pain to drive with a big puffy jacket, especially once the cabin gets warm.

I’m often in this position: car is in underground car park that sits above zero (Celsius) when it’s far colder outside, so I hand-carry my jacket and keep the vent off until the engine heats up.

I don't like driving on icy roads with gloves on, I feel like I have less control of the car

You don't need to wear the gloves, you want to have them in the car in case you end up in an accident and your car is rendered unable to keep you warm.

Essential safety equipment while driving in the cold.

Pretty sure most people with block heaters have these, they run off the same power source https://pic.beely.crasman.cloud/BVC-228/BVC228_11.jpg

Almost all ICE cars I've seen sold in Nordic countries during the past 30 years have an outlet on the passenger side to power these. I think these have been a thing since the 70s though.

I've lived in North Dakota for almost 30 years and have never heard of this

Fuel-type block heaters heat the cabin as well (they turn on ventilation once the coolant has warmed enough). Electric heaters are meant to be used with a cabin heater that uses the same external power source.

I wasn't claiming that they did. The block heater keeps the engine warm to allow for easy remote start.

An EV can do both, without emissions, from wall power.

And another difference is that I can preheat my EV while it’s inside the garage. While I’d never warm my gas engine car inside the garage, not even with the garage door open.

And the nice thing about wall power is that it generates itself thanks to the magic elves.

Or water or nuclear or wind or solar.

Not everything is burning dinosaurs.

You can't do remote start in a garage. I remote start my Tesla in my garage all the time on super-cold days.

If I did that with a gas car, I'd get carbon monoxide poisoning.

> "Nearly every modern gas vehicle has remote start, and has for years."

And every year in the US, at least 430 people die from accidental carbon monoxide poisoning.

Lots of people park in garages where it’s not an option.

My gas powered Mercedes heats up just fine without starting the engine.

This has been a common feature for like ... idk, 20 years? I think even the 80s W214 had this option, although that used a separate burner system instead of batteries.

You are getting downvoted, while you write the truth.

High end cars had that feature for years. Lower end ones used various block heaters / car heater boxes / webastos.

It still burns fuel and exhausts CO2 doing that.

Audis don't come with it because it's illegal in Germany according to my old neighbor so he always had to install an aftermarket one...

If its cold enough in Europe they install dedicated heaters rather than idling the engine - they install a small heating device and pump plumbed into the cooling loop and to the petrol or diesel supply.

When it runs it heats the coolant and circulates it through the engine block.

Newer ones can also talk to the ECU to open the heater core valve and fans to pre heat the interior too. They also can use either SMS messages or an app to turn on remotely if you don't want to use fixed timers.

That's not allowed in Europe.

s/remote start/auxiliary heater/

Fixed for EU. End result is same, ICE car warm.

It's an additional component. It adds extra weight that you're always lugging around. Engine, pipes, pump etc.

And it's weird that it is allowed in Europe, as it has more emissions than a normal engine.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/09/210909123913.h...

Replying to the comment below about garages. One can simply open the garage door, also remotely. Step 1, open garage door remotely, step 2, start car remotely.

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