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Comment by hn_throwaway_99 | Hacker News Reader

I really am curious how much Elon's rantings are affecting potential buyers of Tesla cars. I used to be a huge fan of Elon, was greatly turned off years ago, but now I actively loath him. Not only would I now never consider buying a Tesla, I wouldn't want my friends to buy one either and would tell them "Buy any EV except for a Tesla".

It's quite likely my sentiment is inconsequential, but it's pretty obvious that some of Tesla's biggest fans (and EV fans in general) were the left-leaning people he now vilifies.

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I tend to buy a new car every 5 years, my next one would be coming up in 2023. If you asked me in 2020 I would say a Tesla Model Y, not a chance of that happening now. Lots of great alternatives with less of the social stain.

What are the alternatives to Tesla you are considering?

Hyundai Ioniq 5 is pretty nice if you can find one without an insane dealer markup.

I tested this one and a lot of others, including the Teslas and polestar 2. The Ionic 5 was the one i was most satisfied with, it’s really spacious, has excellent range, vehicle to grid and even camping mode. With the on-screen rear mirror cameras addon, it’s really hard to beat.

Unfortunately, i had to cancel my booking after the energy crisis became too severe..

Some good options in my research:

Polestar

Ford F150 Lightning and Mustang Mach-E

Chevy Bolt (I have a Volt and love that car, still sad it was discontinued)

Lucid cars are beautiful and amazing, but at a luxury price point.

> Ford F150 Lightning and Mustang Mach-E

Wasn't Henry Ford like an actual Nazi?

Henry Ford died 75 years ago?

Also, for what it's worth, modern-day Ford seems very much like the model of a diverse workforce.

> very much like the model of a diverse workforce.

What has Ford done to make it up to Jews? It's not like different minority groups are fungible.

Try harder. I'm pretty positive Henry Ford isn't benefitting from sales of Fords these days.

Porsche Taycan has had my attention for a while

That's in a completely different price category from Model Y.

The upcoming Macan EV might be a closer match in terms of both pricing (hopefully) and utility/size. Probably still pricier than the Y though.

Rivian truck is nice

Has the benefit of existing, too, which is nice.

Might want to check recent news. It's questionable if Rivian is going to exist in 12 months.

>Might want to check recent news

I just did: Rivian is going to meet it's target for 25,000 vehicles produced this year, Amazon is continuing to take delivery of its Rivian electric vans, and preholder count continues to grow... The only "negative" is the Mercedes-Benz deal fell apart due to some Biden administration law that passed (dodged that bullet anyway, Mercedes-Benz makes garbage vehicles).

>It's questionable if Rivian is going to exist in 12 months.

Heard this exact quote about Tesla quarter after quarter 8 or so years ago.

The social stain is almost entirely in your head lol. No one is going to judge you for Musk's actions because you drive a Tesla

Perhaps it's less about the judgement of other people, and more about not wanting to contribute to someone they believe to be a bad actor.

At my age, I don't give a wet slap about how people view me, but I have never considered buying a Tesla, and am taking delivery of my second non-Tesla EV this Saturday. It has nothing to do with how people judge me. I mean, I drive a Fiat 500e, people undoubtedly judge me negatively based on that. :-)

There's something near 100,000 employees in multiple continents at Tesla. That's a lot of diverse opinions and social views. Elon Musk is just one person in that sea of people.

And every individual is complex, with many opinions on many issues, including some that are probably contradictory. Still, call one national hero a pedophile, and most of your other opinions are suddenly irrelevant, aren't they?

Elon is the face of the company

TIL there are people who actually make their car-purchasing decisions based on what people on twitter say on entirely unrelated matters.

And yeah, given how widespread Teslas are where I live (if stopped at any traffic light in the city, you will see at least 2 Teslas waiting), I can confirm that absolutely no one cares.

Today you learned that some people try to make purchasing decisions that aren’t in great misalignment with their values?

Nope, I always knew it was a thing. Just like there are some people who go full-on FreeBSD or categorically refuse to use non-free software. Richard Stallman exists, after all, and is a celebrity.

And I also knew, for quite a while, that positions analogous to that of Stallman should never be taken at face value as something that the general public would care to even know about, let alone support or follow through. And it isn't because I am jaded or don't have faith in people, quite the opposite. It is because average people as a group tend to be pretty good at (perhaps blindly) filtering things into the "practically matters" and "doesn't ultimately matter" buckets.

In relation to this specific scenario, despite the negative reaction to my initial comment on HN and Elon's public perception trending increasingly negative, recent Tesla car sales numbers (which keep increasing) seem to only support my point. People online might loudly say XYZ, but once you look at the numbers that matter, the reality looks a bit differently.

> And yeah, given how widespread Teslas are where I live (if stopped at any traffic light in the city, you will see at least 2 Teslas waiting), I can confirm that absolutely no one cares.

Well, that's obviously false give the existence proofs in these comments. But more to the point, I only went from "Ugh, Elon is so fucking annoying, I just wish he would STFU" to "I will actively try to convince anyone I know to never do anything that would contribute to his wealth" in the past year with all the Twitter BS. I'm sure the vast, vast majority of Teslas you see on the road now were ordered before then.

> Well, that's obviously false give the existence proofs in these comments

Sorry, I meant in real life, not on HN. If you judge reality by what comments here say, you would believe that the average person thinks of TikTok as the greatest evil and that american big tech is out there to violate their privacy to entrap them for life, which is why everyone and their grandma runs an Arch or Ubuntu distro.

This is what I call a niche flavor of a terminally online take.

Your statement was "I can confirm that absolutely no one cares."

Last I checked, I exist in real life, not just on HN, and I'm guessing many of the responders here do as well.

I agree, I have no idea how common this sentiment is, which is why I said so in my original comment. Still, it's a valid hypothesis that the people most likely to be turned off by Elon to the point of avoiding Tesla are also the people who were (at least previously) most likely to want to buy an EV.

I appreciate your take, I really do. But I feel like you are just hyperfocusing on figures of speech.

Of course, there will be some people in real life who genuinely hold those takes. People on HN are real people after all, just like people on reddit/twitter/etc are (bots and astroturfing aside), and their opinions are real.

When I said "no one in real life", I meant that you wouldn't find that opinion heavily represented outside of those online communities, in a way that you would even know about it in real life. The only comments I got on that purchasing decision (and I got tons of those) were either asking about the charging situation or whether i regret getting white interior (answer: no, i don't, because whichever material they use is extremely resistant to dirt/stain and is very easy to clean/maintain).

It is kind of difficult to imagine many people (at least where I live in PNW) to really care, given that just outside of my window as i was writing this reply, I saw 2 model Ys, 1 model 3, and 1 model X pass by. I don't have the stats on hand, but if someone told me that Teslas were in the top 5 of the most sold new car brands in the state (along with Subaru, of course), I would be able to believe it.

Sidenote: I am very pleasantly impressed with the direction Hyundai is taking with their Ioniq line, and I definitely want to try it out.

It's like two days since it was widely reported that Tesla's net approval ratings in consumer polls are now negative (drop from 6% at the start of the year to -1% now).

So clearly the attitudes in real life with real people have changed recently. The number of cars you see on the roads is, incidentally, a trailing indicator. If literally all sales of Teslas stopped now you'd still see them in the wild with the same frequency for years.

Those approval ratings were gathered by Kelley Blue Book, and even they themselves pointed out that other reports disagree. As well as that the recent slippage in brand perception recorded last month had exactly zero negative effects on sales [0].

> The number of cars you see on the roads is, incidentally, a trailing indicator. If literally all sales of Teslas stopped now you'd still see them in the wild with the same frequency for years.

Correct, but their recently posted sales numbers should alleviate that concern.

0. https://www.kbb.com/car-news/is-tesla-brand-loyalty-starting...

> But I feel like you are just hyperfocusing on figures of speech.

Sure, I agree with that, just meant to point out that at least some people care, we just don't know how many or if it's in any way material to Tesla's overall numbers. Also think it's worth emphasizing that the number of Teslas on the road today isn't a good marker, given that Musk's most alienating behavior has only ramped up in the past year or so.

In full agreement with you on both of these points.

There was a quote from Richard Branson that often comes to mind when I think of Elon: "Make a fool of yourself". The context of the quote is that if you don't have the money (or are unwilling to pay) for marketing then you can get free publicity by associating yourself personally with your company's brand and then doing PR stunts that keep you in the media.

I'm not sure if that is what Elon has done intentionally but I agree with your sentiment; I wouldn't consider buying a Tesla because the/his brand has become toxic.

I think maybe toxic in your circle. There are tons of Teslas where I live and I am only seeing more now.

Isn't that the point? It is their circle. Why would anybody decides of someones else's circle?

The point is that given the ever increasing amount of Teslas on the road, is it possible that their circle is quite small?

I've got one in my garage, and a shitload of TSLA in my portfolio.

They're an engineering marvel, and I'm proud of the employees of Tesla that pulled it off, and I'm happy its a product of American manufacturing.

But its an easy choice to go with another manufacturer with Musk at the head of the company - lots of other great options emerging without the downsides of whatever he's trying to accomplish.

People in my circle drive Teslas and I would have bought one in the past. But left or right, I dislike culture war shit kickers.

The number one rule for a salesman is that people need to like you because no one wants to give money to someone they don't like. People may admire and respect Elon but polls show he has become less likable and that's not good for Tesla.

> dislike culture war shit kickers

Yeah good point. I think we all do. I wish he didn't get involved with Twitter at all.

But at this point it's unclear whether he landed on planet "Culture Wars" or the "Culture Wars" landed on him.

Anecdotal, I own a Tesla Model 3 with FSD. I bought a Tesla/EV because the carpool sticker saves me 15 to 20 minutes on my commute. My sticker expires next year and was going to get another Tesla but my wife veto'ed the decision because of the comments Elon made about prosecuting Fauci.

> but my wife veto'ed the decision because of the comments Elon made about prosecuting Fauci.

That's like the least off-the-mark thing Elon has said. The gain of function research is bad, bad stuff.

Agreed, but trying to pin it on Fauci and saying he's responsible for Covid is lunatic rantings. Please see https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/10/29/repeated-... (And, as I always say about these fact-checking sites, you can take the "number of Pinocchios" however you want, but there is very good, detailed information there that provides a much more complete picture than any "prosecute Fauci" nonsense).

Did Musk say Fauci was "responsible for COVID?" Or did he make a tongue-in-cheek joke? Is Fauci above such criticism? He did an okay job during COVID, but is also a pretty good archetype for things that are wrong with public health--the gain of function research, failure to perform cost-benefit analysis in recommending lock downs, initially lying to the public about the efficacy of masks, etc.

To be clear, I'm a longtime Musk/Tesla skeptic. I'm watching quite gleefully as the whole self-driving car thing implodes (for me, it's a two-fer). But perhaps the only folks with less of a sense of humor than Musk fanboys are Fauci fanboys.

Fauci lied under oath.

The specific lie was "The NIH has not ever and does not now fund gain-of-function research in the Wuhan Institute of Virology."

Which we now know is not true

https://www.newsweek.com/fauci-untruthful-congress-wuhan-lab...

I'll take your "untrue" and call it untrue: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/10/29/repeated-...

From your own link:

"When the Intercept obtained EcoHealth documents in September, seven of 11 scientists who are virologists or work in adjacent fields told the Intercept that the work appeared to meet NIH’s criteria for gain-of-function research"

So majority of scientists are on my side, minority on yours.

But exactly, the point is not to say that there is not gray area here (there is), but that the calls of "Fauci lied" and "prosecute Fauci" is what is bullshit.

If you had measured people arguing in good faith that the CDC needs clearer procedures on banning this type of research, I'm all for it. But you don't, you have people shrieking that Fauci is responsible for the deaths of millions, which is nuts.

It's not a "gray area" minority of partisan scientists are pretending what they were doing is not a gain of function, when it obviously is.

Ah yes, you bring up data, only to paint the data that doesn't agree with you as "they're obviously partisan". Not interested in having a conversation with someone who isn't debating in good faith, or who paints all the data that doesn't agree with their preconceived notions as invalid.

It's astonishing. Tesla had such a huge advantage among the wealthy left-leaning individuals that were most likely to spend extra on electric cars. They had a whole untapped market of people who weren't "car people" at their fingertips.

I'm only one data point, but yeah, I ended up cancelling my reservation and buying something else.

I purchased a Model X (spent well over $100k) back in 2019. I (up until this past week) had a reservation for a maxed-out Cybertruck that I was planning to purchase, as well as a 100k+ solar + battery install.

This past week I couldn't stand the thought of giving Elon any more money and canceled all those purchases -- I'd be SHOCKED if Tesla and his other companies don't end up suffering based on his complete 180 flip over the last few years.

All Elon had to do was just shutup and stay behind the scenes, like in the good Musk days. He has started so many great companies and I very much used to admire him. But now it's like watching a trainwreck in slow motion. He was eccentric from the beginning, but it just feels like things have gotten so much worse.

I agree with you. Buy any EV except for Tesla would be my recommendation too.

I'm in the exact same boat as you. I even vaguely defended it when it was name dropped in Star Trek: Discovery back in 2017. Now I can't stand the Elongated Muskrat or anything it touches.

I think the rantings do cause buyer hesitation, but I think the bigger problem is that the Muskrat is no longer really delivering anything. The Cybertruck is nowhere to be seen while the F-150 Lightning is already out and getting rave reviews. FSD has been perpetually <12 months out for half a decade. Traditional automakers are starting to put out cheaper BEVs with better fit and finish than the Model 3. This is a classic case of over-promising and under-delivering, a strategy that only works for so long before investors catch on.

I think it's more the combination of a) viable alternatives and b) negative approval rating as well as c) Tesla has failed to innovate in the past several years and improve their offering.

Yes, the Model Y is a fantastic looking car and performs amazing, but Tesla hasn't really provided any new products or features that are eye popping. FSD is a bust.

I had a cybertruck order that I placed 2 years ago and cancelled 6 months ago because it was clear I wouldn't get it at the price I wanted for at least another 3 years - if I even got it at the price I wanted.

> I wouldn't want my friends to buy one either and would tell them "Buy any EV except for a Tesla".

You care what cars your friends buy?

No one cares that their friend has a porsche, but everyone in a porsche imagines other people noticing them at the stoplight and the ego boost is a non-zero contributor to their purchase decision. Ditto for any upmarket car.

The F-150 isn't America's most popular vehicle because so many Americans need a truck...

I don't think asking your peer's opinions about upcoming big ticket item purchases is too unusual. Especially just as small talk in general.

Sure, people give their two cents all the time. But that's different from caring what decision the person makes at the end of the day. I can't imagine telling a friend that I care what car they buy.

Every time Elon tweets TSLA goes down- you would expect the rate to be parabolic but impressively it continues to be linear.

Give a little take a little maybe. My right wing family now loves him

But enough to drive around in a battery-powered jellybean? Maybe if Tesla released a nice gas-powered pickup truck.

The conspiracy theorist part of my brain wants to think that he couldn’t figure out a way to get right-wingers to buy electric cars so he’s acting in ways that would turn that around for him. He also wants those tax cuts. The bet is progressives will buy them anyway without enough competition. Unfortunately it turns people like me off entirely and I’ll never buy one now as a singular probably useless datapoint.

Doing imaginary culture wars was all it took to get conservatives to begin electric vehicle adoption? I feel like this formula could be applied to climate change or other noble efforts. "The woke hivemind virus is trying to keep all of the vegetables to themselves."

It's interesting. My right wing family also now loves him, but they just love Elon. They would never consider a Tesla because it's what the "left" drive in California, neither of which they want to be associated with.

"he tells it like it is"

And how many of your right wing family is excited about driving an EV? I highly doubt many of the truck drivers who would deliberately drive in front of Teslas "rolling coal" just to be dicks are now thinking "Hey, this Musk guy is great, I need to buy a Tesla".

Frankly, who cares. Buy whatever car you want. Tesla's are still fine, except for the FSD (Fools Self Driving) scam.

I couldn't care less if anyone else is still buying a Tesla, if they want one, good for them. People still drive Volkswagens (VW) today despite their founder being Adolf Hitler. I won't stop them from buying a VW car.

As for Tesla stock, I think it is time for many to admit that the valuation of Tesla stock has been massively inflated with the entire stock market and was already priced in a year ago as I said before. [0]

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27966105

> I really am curious how much Elon's rantings are affecting potential buyers of Tesla cars. I used to be a huge fan of Elon, was greatly turned off years ago, but now I actively loath him

I wouldn't be surprised if what he's been doing increases sales. He's gaining a larger following and thus has a larger marketing channel. Further, the high end EV crowd is relatively small. You can't support a massive market cap unless you go broad (such as trucking)

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