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Comment by wollw | Hacker News Reader

It isn't easy to be honest but I think that it's dangerous to do this sort of thing. Just because it's wrong to lie doesn't mean every truth should be voiced; knowing when to hold your tongue is an important skill. It might have been honest for him to tell his nanny that he was attracted to her or to tell the editor of Rachel Ray he was looking down her shirt but what good did it do? From the sound of it it only served to make them uncomfortable. The fact that it made him feel like an asshole seems to imply it wasn't making him a happier person anyway. I think it's good to strive toward total honesty, but total honesty doesn't mean saying every stupid thought that crosses your mind. Thoughts are transitory things. By voicing some of the darker ones you risk making a larger issue out of something that you might otherwise quickly forget ever crossed your mind. Just because it's true doesn't mean it's beneficial to speak.

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I have not told a lie in roughly ten years -- although something bugs me about that statement, rankles me deeply, so I suspect I may have said something wrong at some point. I do, however, keep a lot of things to myself. I can speak truthfully without injecting lies, and I keep silent when it is obvious the truth (as I see it) is unhelpful or causes trouble. I will occasionally dodge a question, too, in order to keep conversation flow moving; it is another form of keeping silent, although some will consider that that is a kind of lie (probably because they feel entitled to an answer). I am also apt to answer the question that somebody really meant to ask rather than the easy surface question ("Do you have spare change?" == "Do you have spare change that you are willing to give me?" ==> "No.").

How does that affect my relationship with my wife? We both have been able to be very honest with each other, and we have a relationship built strongly on trust and honesty. I hope I never break that because it would be a betrayal. It is really about the tone used to express the thought if the thought is important enough to express in the first place.

I despise the whole concept of "white lies". I despise people who dare to manipulate me, to condescendingly see after my own good or feelings by bald-face lying to me about something. Be honest or say nothing, but do not dare tell me excuses that are obvious lies, "socially acceptable". According to whom? Where do you draw the line between "white" and "black" lies? I do find it insulting, and I often do not mind calling people out on it; sure, things get uncomfortable, but they are the ones spouting deceit.

Perhaps it boils down to the notion that what somebody expresses is a measure of their integrity and honor. Somewhere I read a quote along the lines of... You can judge a man by two things: what he wants and what he is willing to do to get it.

It sounds like we have a similar approach to honesty. The way I see it the distinction between honesty and dishonesty is entirely in the intent. What is being communicated isn't always the literal thing being said. The same sort of interpretation employed with the "Do you have spare change?" is also what makes things like sarcasm still honest (as it's an understood change of meaning) and true statements that are meant to deceive dishonest. I see white lies as in the dishonest camp myself; if the best thing you can do is to avoid answering, that's the best you can do.

Delivery also makes a difference. There is some saying that "people who value brutal honesty value brutality more than honesty". Telling people the truth does not require one to be ugly and hostile. If you are being ugly and hostile while speaking the truth, it probably says you are an ugly hostile person more than it says the truth is ugly and hostile (though there are certainly cases where trying to frame it in a nicer way is extremely challenging if not impossible).

Taking the title of the article as an example to work with: As a woman who used to be quite plump, I found that some men liked me like that and had pleasant ways of remarking on the fact that I had generous curves. Observing honestly that a person is not thin does not automatically require one to agree that simply being fat is inherently something horrible and in desperate need of remedying, worthy of making one a social outcast who should promptly pursue personal torture to get in line with the social norms and expectations that "thin is in".

I deleted my "radically honest" reply to this post because it would've got me banned. Even though it was completely honest.

Keeping silent is a form of a white lie. If it causes trouble, chances are it is something that must be said in order to hold on to your supposed "honesty". The reason white lies exist to keep from causing trouble. It is not a bad thing.

> Keeping silent is a form of a white lie.

I grant that people may believe this, but I disagree that it is true. If you ask me now my social security number, and I silently refuse to answer, or I ignore you, am I a liar? Of course not. I am not submitting a "white lie"; I am saying nothing.

If my silence is crafted to deceive you, that is another story entirely. There is a difference between "silence intended to deceive" and "silence intended to not answer". Usually there are other cues to aid in the deception, too, such that the response is not entirely silent (wagging eyebrows or whatever).

I read the article. He does sound like an arsehole, but you know what, it's probably because he is one. Many people are arseholes, they just don't tell you about it. You don't find out about their true nature until after the contract was signed, at Christmas after five years of marriage or when you notice their phone has applications on it they are using to cheat on their partner with. I prefer honest, abrupt arseholes. You can choose whether or not you want to associate with them or form a relationship with them. Most people have some minor failing or another, wouldn't you prefer to know what it is so you can act accordingly?

I'll be honest with you, I have a handful of close friends and a couple of hundred acquaintances who will answer my calls if I ask them to come out for coffee. I really don't care much about what others think of me. I wouldn't say I am an arsehole but I have been one at least once. If people really want to associate with me, then I'll be pretty frank about who I am.

Honesty doesn't mean being an arsehole, but if you are an arsehole you probably should be honest about it. Some people are truly terrible people, I've met quite a few. I appreciate their honesty but I know for everyone who reveals such details many stay in hiding. It's the arseholes who stay hidden that are the bigger problems, like the ones who will read this comment or prowl online communities looking for leverage against us.

"but if you are an arsehole you probably should be honest about it"

OK, but one might distinguish honesty and gloating, and suggest reformation as another alternative. Some people do change.

If they change then they can honestly say that they were an arsehole before but they aren't any more. Everyone wins.

You make a good point, but a distinction should be made between fleeting (intrusive) thoughts (like you meet someone and want to punch him for no reason, or yell fire in a theater for no reason) and things you really think, but don't say. Like that you don't like marzipan, which your in-laws think you like.

In some cultures (e.g. some European countries) people are very frank with each other, and that sometimes helps to clear up miscommunications more quickly.

What I dislike is people who praise themselves a lot. It might be true, but I was brought up to be modest, and I feel at a disadvantage when I am with people who toot their own horn a lot. And it annoys me.

Yeah, the distinction between fleeting, intrusive thoughts and ongoing things you're afraid to mention is important. The important thing about things like telling your in-laws you don't like marzipan though is that these are the sorts of things that you should really think about before you bring them up. They aren't the sorts of things you should just voice as they come to mind... the sort of honesty this article is talking about seems to imply the thing to do is to tell your in-laws how much you hate marzipan the moment you think it in their presence which would probably be the moment they give you some. It's probably a better idea to reflect on the goodwill they're expressing toward you and formulate an appropriate response before saying anything. The difference between voicing a gut reaction like "You know, I hate marzipan" while they're handing it to you and saying something like "I appreciate the gesture but I really can't stand marzipan" is huge.

Modesty, as you mention, is also a great example. There's nothing wrong with mentioning the things you've accomplished when it's relevant but it's important to know the time and place for it. You might talk about your skills and successes in a job interview for instance as it's the proper time for it but if you go on like that when you're with your friends you'll probably get tiresome.

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