I Think You're Fat (2007) | Hacker News Reader

I Think You're Fat (2007)

esquire.com

219 pointsglenstein111 comments

If you haven't figured it out already, this is a terrible, terrible idea. I tried a variant of this for about two years in college and it caused way more problems than it solved (actually, I don't think it solved any problems).

Despite what you may think about the righteousness of the Truth, people get offended. People get offended at even the slightest of things. Even if they're completely obvious.

We have social filters because they help people get along. The people around us don't want to know our real thoughts and opinions because they are often hurtful or awkward. It shouldn't matter, in the normal course of interaction, what I think about you, your clothes, how you talk, or what I think about anything. By filtering out some of my thoughts & opinions, I avoid pouring sand into the gears of interpersonal relationships.

Maybe, but I had a bad hair cut for 3 years, and I wish someone had had the balls to tell me.

I think there's something to be said for telling people hurtful truths that can be quickly remedied. If broached appropriately and with a right-minded heart, I think a comment about your haircut would have been taken just fine - because of the temporarily and ability to instantly or quickly be solved, it's not as offensive, and actually, it ends up being quite helpful. Like having body odor in one moment or a huge stain on our shirt.

However, if that solution takes time to be alleviated, such as being grossly overweight, ugly or simply stupid, these kinds of "honest truths" will cause true harm because they will cause strong self-esteem hits that will linger over time. I for one would be happy and want with these kind of "temporary hurtful truths" told to me. I would like to say I would be the same for the long-term ones, but I'm sure I would be truly hurt just the same.

Regarding 'grossly overweight' - every fat person knows s/he is fat. You're not telling them anything they don't know. And you're not going to give them an incentive to lose weight by doing so.

That's not even near true. Many people are completely oblivious about their weight. Though I highly doubt you will do anything but hurting them by telling them that they're fat.

As a fat person, I ask: how??

Seriously, the idea that I could have just not realised I'm fat baffles me.

Body image isn't always accurate. Surely you have heard of anorexia?

Clip from white chicks about that (opposite of a fat person thinking they are not, but similar principal I guess): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gy4xMgArmk (dressing room scene -- possibly NSFW)

Body dymorphia is a very real phenomenon, although it's commonly seen the other way around. As a formerly fat person, I have to say that I'd go long periods where I'd be willfully oblivious to my weight. The occasional hurtful comment and/or painfully bad photograph really did jar me into action.

True story:

I was out drinking one night many years ago right around the time mullet spotting became a meme. Several beers into the evening I spotted a college age kid walking into the bar sporting a classic example of the tennis mullet. Being a service minded individual (not to mention very drunk) I marched over to him and asked him if he was aware he had a mullet and directed him to http://www.mulletsgalore.com/ the next time he was near a computer. The kid looked at me like I was nuts but he wrote the URL down. Mission accomplished I went back to drinking with friends.

A month later at the same bar I was approached by a vaguely familiar dude with a sharp looking haircut. He introduced himself, thanked me profusely for telling him about mullets and bought me a round before joining up with the rest of his friends. Apparently the kid just hadn't heard of mullets yet and I'd done him a real service by bringing him up to speed on the subject.

Classic! You might have done him a service, but perhaps you've done those around him a disservice - now he bears no evidence of toolhood as obvious as a mullet!

If he took the stranger seriously, visited the website, acted on the well-meant and accurate advice, and months later remembers the stranger well enough to buy him a round - I'm going to say that that's pretty good evidence he is not a tool.

And you would be correct. He was a nice guy who had an unfortunate haircut.

I hate to glom onto just this example, but I've ever so gently suggested to a fellow who wishes to advance in his endeavors that maybe he might find it worth his while to pay more than $10 for a haircut. The response was a pretty miffed retelling of a time he paid $30 in San Diego, and it looked "just the same." (I wondered if it were possible he couldn't tell the difference between qualities of haircuts, being that his appearance suggested that.) The lesson I took from this is that people chose the haircut they have and they're likely happy with it - the alternative being that they don't care. Your differing tale intrigues me.

I also tried a variant of this for a while in college and I generally agree with you but for me it did have some significant benefits. It caused problems in many relationships and certainly produced a lot of drama but this had an interesting and positive impact on my social sphere as a whole. The people in my life who appreciated my honesty and could deal with it got pulled closer and took the place of the friends who would rather not put up with it. What ended up happening is that all of my close friendships were almost completely free of any pretenses and this greatly strengthened our relationships. We also felt less inhibited to discuss very personal things in a candid way so this brought us closer yet. Looking back on my life I consider these friendships to be unquestionably the strongest and most meaningful that I've ever had.

When you did your experiment did you not have at least some of your relationships grow stronger because of it?

Yes, some relationships grew stronger, but I don't have evidence to suggest that they grew stronger because of it, and not in spite of it.

Ha...an important nuance that gets overlooked in most hindsight evaluations.

I've lived my whole life with "too much honesty" and it works just as you say. People who can't deal with honesty don't want to be around me, and I end up surrounded by a few friends that I can actually trust, instead of a bunch of phonies. My relationships have almost no drama at all.

I'm not going to say there aren't downsides, though. It makes dealing with the rest of humanity difficult because strangers still get upset. As such, I've taken to just smiling at strangers and not talking about anything of substance at all. If they try to lead it there, I generally just grin and nod no matter the topic. If they push, I give them full honesty and they either scurry away, or don't.

It also caused problems in my previous job because when someone asked a question, I'd give an honest answer instead of hedging. That made me 'unapproachable' and I took a hit on my yearly review, every year. I even made a girl cry because I told her she was wrong. When she said that a manager told her that info, I told her the manager was wrong. And he was. 100% wrong. She cried. She was really good at her job, but just couldn't handle anything outside her world view... And managers were always right, to her.

And of course, romance is tougher... Last year, I finally found a girl that is open and honest like me, and we have mutual attraction, and it's working out quite well. Most of my previous relationships died because they were based on lies. I don't blame them for that, it's just a fact.

"Last year, I finally found a girl that is open and honest like me, and we have mutual attraction, and it's working out quite well"

How do you manage the fact that you might be attracted to other women? I believe it's normal, and it's also normal that men don't speak of that to their girlfriends or wives, or give "white lies".

(I'm not talking about cheating, open arrangements or anything). What the guy in the article did is what many would want to do

Physical attraction? I'm lucky there. It doesn't affect me like most men. I don't go freaking nuts about it. Hot women are like art pieces... Great to look at. My girl? Great to be with. Much better.

If she asked me if a girl was hot, I'd answer. (And have.) I don't go around hollering about how beautiful women are, though. Stating the obvious has never been a fault of mine.

That's interesting. Were the people most offended the ones you lied to most frequently?

Also, certainly, committing to telling the truth doesn't mean having to utter every thought that comes to mind and answer every question put to you.

Part of the exercise was to always respond truthfully. I didn't make any distinction between omitting truth and actively lying.

I never really lied to people in the first place, but I would offer standard niceties. Those counted as lying and were no longer said. It's hard to say who was most offended. I can say that the least offended typically were somewhat antisocial themselves; those who found social norms something to analyze, rather than to follow.

You can be completely open and honest and still be polite. It's a lot harder than just being a tactless dick, which is of course the default that everyone thinks of when they think of "complete honesty with no filter". It's the true mark of a nice person when they can be completely honest and still be nice.

If you haven't figured it out already, this is a terrible, terrible idea.

Only if it's done in the way the author does it in the article. Blurting out everything at once is too hard to distinguish from passive agressive smallness. Also, you'd best have done some work first to ensure you don't have some passive agression leaking out somewhere in the first place.

The right way to do this is to not say too much at first, but to also actively seek out those who value the truth. Sharing the truth like sharing intimacy -- it's best done consensually.

Look for those who will take substantive stands, and filter away those who are just saying things to curry favor or fit in. Welcome even those you might disagree with. Admit when the other has a point, and see what they do with that. People reveal whether they really care about the truth rather quickly. Those who do not care often reveal that unknowingly.

The only tact necessary is to withhold an opinion by claiming ignorance or unfamiliarity with a topic and to sincerely respect others. One can usually do both truthfully -- very few people are the world's best experts at a given thing, and few can claim to know all the details of another's situation. If you have the humility to understand this as the truth, then you can usually exercise tact without resorting to untruthfulness.

Also, I might add this idea being terrible or not depends on the types of people you interact with. There are people in the world who value these sorts of communications, and if you do this long enough, eventually the ones who don't self-edit themselves out. You get called "asshole" and "weirdo" and "maniac" along the way, but years later, life is pretty grand.

I don't take it to this unnecessary extreme (there are better ways of putting most of the things he said and still being just as honest), but it really does work.

It might just be that people are so easily offended because they're not used to being offended.

I appreciate you linking to this article but I wonder what you were doing browsing the archives of Esquire. To be honest, I did not see much of a conclusion from the article, but I enjoyed reading it. Also, I thought I would let you know that I am writing this comment to get up-voted, so that I can increase my karma. If I increase my karma, people may remember my username, and later up-vote the articles I submit about my company. That will increase traffic to my website. Eventually, the result of this will be that I become rich and famous.

I started out thinking you were funny and hip for writing the comment, and then I realized you were only honest to be upvoted, and you are probably not as honest in real life and I got angry that I did not think about this first. Also, I would like to write like Hemingway.

You're both just trying to be clever by aping the article without putting any thought into what it means.

I think we succeeded, and you are just jealous.

This was a hilarious comment and I also enjoy this thread in general.

I'm trying to decide if you really enjoyed it, or are deceiving me (us) to get upvoted. I am ashamed of myself for thinking another human being is being deceitful, when in fact he may actually be being completely honest.

I am now worrying that telling complete truths is taking too much time, self-reflection and thinking to be good as a day-to-day activity.

Legitimately funny. Reminded me of my favorite Futurama quote:

"You're just jealous."

"No I'm not! Oh wait, I am! But my point remains valid."

I don't know if your jealousy remark was accurate or not, but this whole thing is definitely amusing.

I appreciate you writing this comment. I resent the fact that you wrote it first before I could think of it. I hope I don't get down voted for continuing a thread in this reddit-esque manner. Although I try not to be attached, I check my karma every time I log in, with the hopes that my opinions have been validated and accepted.

Yeah except what you're doing with this comment is so painfully obvious. This isn't anything close to Radical Honesty. You're just saying something vaguely taboo, in a space where this is already accepted, and to absolutely no end.

Nothing is gained from your comment, and I can picture you sitting there with a stupid smile on your face thinking, "oh aren't I clever! I understood something enough to copy its form." It's pissing me off but no one here should care about that.

What people should take away is that RH doesn't just mean be a little dickish all the time. It means that when you have something important to say, something that has a direct impact on the people around you, you should not worry about spinning or softening it. Don't just tell the hot girl you were trying to look at her tits. Tell your wife about it. It matters to your wife more.

Doesn't RH require you tell anyone who happens to be in earshot at the time. If the hot girl is in front of you, you tell her about the fantasy. If you kind of don't trust Blacks, you say it when you come across a few of them when you're walking to the bus stop -- if it crosses your mind.

If you think your boss is a jerk, you tell him everyday. If you think your daughter is not cute enough to get a good boyfriend, you tell her that whenever it pops into your mind.

The article notes its is if there is no filter from your brain to your mouth. You say it when you think it.

Personally I think it is a stupid idea. There's a reason that the filter exists -- otherwise we likely would have evolved to have no such filter (the filter was probably an evolutionary development as I suspect the default is to have no such filter).

>You say it when you think it.

Anyone who can't think faster than they can talk ought to go get a job washing dishes somewhere. So people are still needing to filter what they say, since no one can say everything they think.

The question is more "what if you could talk as fast as you think?"

French stand-up artist Pierre Desproges once said "one can laugh about anything, but not with everyone."

It's the same with radical honesty. I've been able to enjoy "radically honest" types of friendships. It works, it really does, it's on a different level of enlightenment from any other kind of relationship, until someone simply refuses to communicate anymore for some reason.

It's one of those things you find out of sheer luck, and when you do, you'd better milk it for all its worth while it lasts. The closest description would be that of a jazz band improvization ("boeuf") turning music into something else entirely.

I have the same problem with your comment that I have with the article. What you're doing is a kind of kitschy psuedo-honesty that I think the author is engaging in to some extent. None of the author's admissions were that risky. They were refreshing to read and perhaps a little courageous, but it's stuff you might have guessed was there already. If, hypothetically, his wife left him because of a sexual fetish, that would be no more or less of a non-sequitur than anything else he admitted to, but much more potentially damaging to his reputation. (Again, the preceding was a hypothetical.)

It's not that A.J. Jacobs should have to hold himself to that standard of the subject he's reporting on, but that he's purporting-to-do-so-but-not-really, which is irritating. For some reason his (and your) version of "radical honesty" becomes a game where you just craft a succession of start-and-stop sentences with cute, largely forgivable admissions of self-interest. I'm not against humor but I'm suspicious that for some it functions as a coping mechanism that substitutes for sincere engagement with an uncomfortable idea.

I did not discover this article by browsing Esquire. It was part of Luke Muelhauser's list of favorite articles.

For me, there's definitely an attention-getting side to the "radical honesty" as presented in the article. I'm more inclined to believe people value the truth when they are:

a) good listeners b) rigorous with facts c) possessed of humility and respect for others

One can display such traits and thereby signal valuing the truth in a more substantive way than the behavior presented in the article, which I suspect could be easily faked (at least at first) by someone with borderline personality disorder.

You described that beautifully. I've known people who use that sort of flashy pseudo-honesty who intend to be shocking and get a reaction out of people, and while it does work for some, I'm usually inclined to point out what they're doing in hopes that they'd stop and I could never find which words to say. It irritates me.

I thought the comment was very funny. It was clearly a riff on the article. Maybe you need to get a sense of humor.

In the interest of temporary honesty in this thread, as someone about to tip 18k karma, I warn that having lots of karma on HN has proven to be not particularly useful and doesn't seem to help my items get upvoted at all ;-)

I think you started off strong but you went too far with the rich and famous part, which left me thinking you are full of shit.

It isn't easy to be honest but I think that it's dangerous to do this sort of thing. Just because it's wrong to lie doesn't mean every truth should be voiced; knowing when to hold your tongue is an important skill. It might have been honest for him to tell his nanny that he was attracted to her or to tell the editor of Rachel Ray he was looking down her shirt but what good did it do? From the sound of it it only served to make them uncomfortable. The fact that it made him feel like an asshole seems to imply it wasn't making him a happier person anyway. I think it's good to strive toward total honesty, but total honesty doesn't mean saying every stupid thought that crosses your mind. Thoughts are transitory things. By voicing some of the darker ones you risk making a larger issue out of something that you might otherwise quickly forget ever crossed your mind. Just because it's true doesn't mean it's beneficial to speak.

You make a good point, but a distinction should be made between fleeting (intrusive) thoughts (like you meet someone and want to punch him for no reason, or yell fire in a theater for no reason) and things you really think, but don't say. Like that you don't like marzipan, which your in-laws think you like.

In some cultures (e.g. some European countries) people are very frank with each other, and that sometimes helps to clear up miscommunications more quickly.

What I dislike is people who praise themselves a lot. It might be true, but I was brought up to be modest, and I feel at a disadvantage when I am with people who toot their own horn a lot. And it annoys me.

Yeah, the distinction between fleeting, intrusive thoughts and ongoing things you're afraid to mention is important. The important thing about things like telling your in-laws you don't like marzipan though is that these are the sorts of things that you should really think about before you bring them up. They aren't the sorts of things you should just voice as they come to mind... the sort of honesty this article is talking about seems to imply the thing to do is to tell your in-laws how much you hate marzipan the moment you think it in their presence which would probably be the moment they give you some. It's probably a better idea to reflect on the goodwill they're expressing toward you and formulate an appropriate response before saying anything. The difference between voicing a gut reaction like "You know, I hate marzipan" while they're handing it to you and saying something like "I appreciate the gesture but I really can't stand marzipan" is huge.

Modesty, as you mention, is also a great example. There's nothing wrong with mentioning the things you've accomplished when it's relevant but it's important to know the time and place for it. You might talk about your skills and successes in a job interview for instance as it's the proper time for it but if you go on like that when you're with your friends you'll probably get tiresome.

I have not told a lie in roughly ten years -- although something bugs me about that statement, rankles me deeply, so I suspect I may have said something wrong at some point. I do, however, keep a lot of things to myself. I can speak truthfully without injecting lies, and I keep silent when it is obvious the truth (as I see it) is unhelpful or causes trouble. I will occasionally dodge a question, too, in order to keep conversation flow moving; it is another form of keeping silent, although some will consider that that is a kind of lie (probably because they feel entitled to an answer). I am also apt to answer the question that somebody really meant to ask rather than the easy surface question ("Do you have spare change?" == "Do you have spare change that you are willing to give me?" ==> "No.").

How does that affect my relationship with my wife? We both have been able to be very honest with each other, and we have a relationship built strongly on trust and honesty. I hope I never break that because it would be a betrayal. It is really about the tone used to express the thought if the thought is important enough to express in the first place.

I despise the whole concept of "white lies". I despise people who dare to manipulate me, to condescendingly see after my own good or feelings by bald-face lying to me about something. Be honest or say nothing, but do not dare tell me excuses that are obvious lies, "socially acceptable". According to whom? Where do you draw the line between "white" and "black" lies? I do find it insulting, and I often do not mind calling people out on it; sure, things get uncomfortable, but they are the ones spouting deceit.

Perhaps it boils down to the notion that what somebody expresses is a measure of their integrity and honor. Somewhere I read a quote along the lines of... You can judge a man by two things: what he wants and what he is willing to do to get it.

It sounds like we have a similar approach to honesty. The way I see it the distinction between honesty and dishonesty is entirely in the intent. What is being communicated isn't always the literal thing being said. The same sort of interpretation employed with the "Do you have spare change?" is also what makes things like sarcasm still honest (as it's an understood change of meaning) and true statements that are meant to deceive dishonest. I see white lies as in the dishonest camp myself; if the best thing you can do is to avoid answering, that's the best you can do.

Delivery also makes a difference. There is some saying that "people who value brutal honesty value brutality more than honesty". Telling people the truth does not require one to be ugly and hostile. If you are being ugly and hostile while speaking the truth, it probably says you are an ugly hostile person more than it says the truth is ugly and hostile (though there are certainly cases where trying to frame it in a nicer way is extremely challenging if not impossible).

Taking the title of the article as an example to work with: As a woman who used to be quite plump, I found that some men liked me like that and had pleasant ways of remarking on the fact that I had generous curves. Observing honestly that a person is not thin does not automatically require one to agree that simply being fat is inherently something horrible and in desperate need of remedying, worthy of making one a social outcast who should promptly pursue personal torture to get in line with the social norms and expectations that "thin is in".

I deleted my "radically honest" reply to this post because it would've got me banned. Even though it was completely honest.

Keeping silent is a form of a white lie. If it causes trouble, chances are it is something that must be said in order to hold on to your supposed "honesty". The reason white lies exist to keep from causing trouble. It is not a bad thing.

> Keeping silent is a form of a white lie.

I grant that people may believe this, but I disagree that it is true. If you ask me now my social security number, and I silently refuse to answer, or I ignore you, am I a liar? Of course not. I am not submitting a "white lie"; I am saying nothing.

If my silence is crafted to deceive you, that is another story entirely. There is a difference between "silence intended to deceive" and "silence intended to not answer". Usually there are other cues to aid in the deception, too, such that the response is not entirely silent (wagging eyebrows or whatever).

I read the article. He does sound like an arsehole, but you know what, it's probably because he is one. Many people are arseholes, they just don't tell you about it. You don't find out about their true nature until after the contract was signed, at Christmas after five years of marriage or when you notice their phone has applications on it they are using to cheat on their partner with. I prefer honest, abrupt arseholes. You can choose whether or not you want to associate with them or form a relationship with them. Most people have some minor failing or another, wouldn't you prefer to know what it is so you can act accordingly?

I'll be honest with you, I have a handful of close friends and a couple of hundred acquaintances who will answer my calls if I ask them to come out for coffee. I really don't care much about what others think of me. I wouldn't say I am an arsehole but I have been one at least once. If people really want to associate with me, then I'll be pretty frank about who I am.

Honesty doesn't mean being an arsehole, but if you are an arsehole you probably should be honest about it. Some people are truly terrible people, I've met quite a few. I appreciate their honesty but I know for everyone who reveals such details many stay in hiding. It's the arseholes who stay hidden that are the bigger problems, like the ones who will read this comment or prowl online communities looking for leverage against us.

"but if you are an arsehole you probably should be honest about it"

OK, but one might distinguish honesty and gloating, and suggest reformation as another alternative. Some people do change.

If they change then they can honestly say that they were an arsehole before but they aren't any more. Everyone wins.

I'm excessively honest. It's a tough row to hoe. I've worked hard at learning to live this way without just going around being an asshole all the time. Pulling that combo off is even tougher. One key: Honesty and full disclosure are not the same thing. I am entitled to my own opinion. Other people are not entitled to my opinion (ie I do not have to tell them what it is just because I have one). Learning when to keep my big fat fucking mouth shut is a good thing. "A closed mouth gathers no feet."

In short: Honesty and indiscretion are not synonyms.

You might find Sissela Bok's books, Lying: Moral Choice in Public and Private Life and Secrets, interesting. Boiled down, her arguments amount to 1) there is rarely adequate justification for lying, and 2) the problem of secrets is far more complex. The arguments are very good and well-supported.

The problem with this is that because lying or omitting the truth is so common, you end up communicating more than you may intend to when you are honest and forthright. For example, it is impossible to comment about being attracted to someone without also implicitly communicating that you want to either go on a date with or sleep with them in most cultures. Or if you do the opposite and tell them you find them hideous, it is generally assumed that you must have told them this because you wanted to cause them distress.

I think this whole thing could maybe work, though, if you take great care to be very aware of what you are indirectly communicating and head off those assumptions. In many cases, this may simply require that you first qualify things with "Don't take this the wrong way, since I'm trying this Radical Honesty thing, but..." or "Can I be blunt with you? [yes] I think..." In other cases, this could be more specifically addressing the feelings you expect to elicit, "I know this is going to make you feel bad, but I think it will be better for you to hear this from me now, ..."

It is really interesting how the socially acceptable level of honesty varies from place to place. I've recently moved from Poland to Northern California, and the expression "dancing on eggshells" describes very well my experience.

In Poland, I would classify myself as maybe a little bit above the average in terms of the sort of honesty described in the article (and that mostly with people I knew very well). Here, if I don't control myself I end up being the awkward says-before-thinking guy...

What bothers me most, however, isn't not being able to speak my mind; it's the lack of feedback from people around me. I am always left wondering if stuff like "I really like your other glasses" isn't actually code for "you look like an idiot in those glasses, and I am embarrassed to be seen with you on the street." I can only hope that with time I will be able to calibrate my sensors for California...

(On a side note, I feel really glad to be married. Dating must be hell in California ;)

Since when were the words honest and tactless synonymous? There are plenty of ways of telling people something they don't want to hear without being incredibly blunt. This man appears to get off on the while confrontational part of not lying.

I consider myself pretty honest but I don't tell people truths unless they ask my opinion or its a problem for me.

"Did you get the birthday gift I sent you?" asks her stepmom.
"Uh-huh," I say.
She sent me a gift certificate to Saks Fifth Avenue.
"And? Did you like it?"
"Not really. I don't like gift certificates. It's like you're giving me an errand to run."
"Well, uh . . ."

Once again, I felt the thrill of inappropriate candor.

If this whole thing felt "thrilling" then by my estimation, he's usually disingenuous to an extent where I'd just eliminate him from associates I feel are worthwhile.

Also, the fact that he feels a gift certificate is like being "given an errand to run" indicates a level of self indulgence and laziness that would eliminate him from associates I would hire, as well as supporting the theory that he's usually too disingenuous for me to hang out with. If someone doesn't have enough balls to flat out tell me, "I got your gift certificate, but I haven't had time to go to the store yet," and feel the need to tell me the "right thing," then I can't imagine being able to depend them to tell me the truth when there's a little stress and things actually matter.

Some of us had to learn to not be like this.

http://stuffaspergerpeoplelike.com/2008/11/30/28-brutal-hone...

That's a very important point. I guess I agree with the comment that it's a "pseudo-honesty" and not the brutal honesty mentioned in your link.

(comment: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3398217 )

Single Page link http://www.esquire.com/print-this/honesty0707?page=all

My wife is the only person I'm nearly totally honest with. I won't say completely honest, but it's pretty close. Far more than I see most people be with their opposites.

Sometimes it hurts her, sometimes I say something and wonder if I should have lied instead, but ultimately I think it makes everything so much healthier between us. If I'm in the middle of something and she's telling me a boring story about shopping for clothes, I'll tell her right out, I'm busy and I don't really care about your clothes shopping. She'll be annoyed but she'll also listen, and doesn't harbor any long-term resentment over it. I don't know that this would work for everyone, but I think it's a good thing to do.

I don't think I have the courage to do this with everyone, though.

So, it took a while to dig up a working link, but there's a memorable/revealing story I listened to a while ago about a visit to Brad Blanton's Radical Honesty workshop... worth a listen.

mp3 link: http://fancyandawesome.com/cm/?tag=starlee-kine

Original source: The Moth podcast.

(( Spoiler: it goes beyond being merely unflattering towards Blanton, to downright disturbing. ))

Great listen, puts it all into perspective. Still don't understand the cat thing!

Do you have a transcript somewhere? I can't listen to audio.

Maybe there's a service for deaf people somewhere... googling I found Dragon Naturally Speaking, I wonder if that is the state of the art.

A transcript would be nice! But I doubt there's one out there; it took a lot of trawling to find a mirror of the podcast in the first place, unfortunately.

Many utterances do not exist in an abstract world of truth or falsity, but imply an intention. This may vary with context. In a group therapy session, "I'd like to kick your ass." may reveal (previously) unspoken intentions and lead to a useful discussion. In a bar, late at night when everyone's been drinking it means more or less "and unless you can prove that I can't, I either shall do so or shall simply make you an object of contempt to the bystanders."

In some neutral situation (is there one?) telling a woman that you are attracted to her simply conveys a fact. Telling your domestic employee this may lead to her pushing the desk against the door every night before she turns in.

I think being honest, and talking about elephants in the room would open up some relationships. It would make people feel less alone in their thoughts. We all share similar thoughts but sometimes we feel we're weird as heck b/c we're the only one with such thoughts.

For me, it's less about talking/gossiping about others, and judging others. I'm talking about universal stuff like the unfairness of life(genetic lottery), death(do 80-year olds go to bed thinking this might be the day? do older parents wake up, thinking this might be the day their parents are dead?). Opening up about what we're thinking.. not about others, but about life.

I think the Radical Honesty approach goes too far, but the kernel of truths that I've personally found useful are:

1. vulnerability (i.e. telling the truth about your feelings) promotes intimacy

2. boldly saying what you think does indeed help with picking up women

I really enjoy A.J. Jacob's writing. His books[1] are great, well worth the read if you need some fun non-fiction.

1. http://www.amazon.com/A.-J.-Jacobs/e/B000APL8HO

Personally i try not to lie whenever possible, i prefer brutal truth, i especially appreciate it when given to me, because bullshitting me doesn't help me at all, if you tell me the truth then i can learn from it, if you bullshit me, i wont realise there is a problem.

However, when talking with others, i always try to stick to brutal truth, but word it in the nicest way possible, because lets face it, some people cant take radical honesty. Sometimes i will omit the biggest negative and give smaller negative as constructive criticism and suggest an improvement. While its not full on honesty, i feel its much better than just bullshitting someone.

A counter-point (kind of) - On the Decay of the Art of Lying, by Mark Twain http://grammar.about.com/od/60essays/a/lyingessay.htm

Has anyone watched Kathy Griffin? It's like watching this principle in action. I have a friend who similarly has very little filter, though her heart is incredibly huge. She still runs into problems with it, but she styled her life as to also include radical acceptance and live at the point where she doesn't regret what she says.

It's fascinating to watch up close. I wouldn't suggest it to the average entrepreneur, however, because your silence and overstating/understating can be a large asset, especially when you have a reputation for being truthful.

I'd recommend buying this more thoughtful version by Sam Harris for three bucks:

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/lying/

Reading between the lines, Radical Honesty is a type of practice where one is constantly working to engage with every moment and every interaction, and not to always default to being "nice". Most people aren't aware of what they are thinking and how it shapes them. To be radically honest is a form of tapping into the mind stream and checking it.

Through being constantly aware of the mind's contents one is in a better position to elicit interesting relationships, beyond just mere niceties.

So if someone comes up to one of these radically honest people and tells them they are a pretentious self-important little jerk who is too full of themselves to be worth even contemplating getting to know they will think "Oh! What a refreshingly straightforward person, I must elicit an interesting relationship with them". I don't think so.

It is a process. One doesn't become radically honest with oneself until one notices how the body physically responds to criticisms.

Toastmasters is a good example where I keep noticing the better toastmasters actively solicit criticisms. Even if the message was "your speech was boring" is sufficient to prod them figure out how to improve it.

This comes from a test for Aspergers doesn't it? Only people who are incapable of comprehending their role in social relationships would think this was a good idea.

Hint for the Aspies, relationships require effort on your part. These little niceties help people to like you, it shouldn't be necessary but life is a lot easier with them than without. Its like error checking in your code. In an ideal world it shouldn't be necessary, but it isn't an ideal world.

tl;dr: Blanton's diagnosis is right, but there might be better alternative treatments.

I read the article and the books. While I have never been able to fully implement it, there is something in radical honesty that rings very true to me. I now realize it is about Blanton's diagnosis: lying will rotten your life, by forcing you to create a self that is far from your true being. Nothing new here, Di Mello and Tolle have modernly approached the same subject from different angles, while it has been covered in many philosophical and spiritual texts throughout history.

But Blanton proposes a kind of shock therapy that, while possibly effective, is extremely difficult to put into daily practice. In short, by always telling the truth you will eventually build a fulfilling life, but you will have to go through a lot of drama and resentment, possibly pushing a lot of people away from you during the process.

Is it possible to do it in a better way? I really don't know, but I have tried a lot of things in the last couple of years that seems to be working. It basically involves trying to build a lifestyle where I just don't need to lie anymore. Start-ups are great for that compared to other work environments, but so is moving to smaller communities, being completely open and honest with family and friends, etc.

Whenever I put myself in a position where people's opinions can significantly impact my (perceived?) well-being, I find it very hard to be totally honest and close to my true self.

In my early 20's I met at a party one of my parent's friends, who hadn't seen me for 4-5 years since I'd left home for university and then my first job. He squarely greeted me with "Crikey, you're starting to look fat".

It was completely out of the blue, and really hurt - initially - but it sank in and became a turning point. After that point I started eating less and realised I could no longer just eat whatever I wanted without consequence.

His unusual honesty has had a direct positive effect on my health, and then indirectly those around me.

Oh please. I tried this with my girlfriend months ago. It took 3 seconds to tell her she could lose a little weight, and about 3 hours to beg her not to leave me.

This would only work if there was one universally agreed upon truth. Our experiences color our opinions. One persons Fat is another persons 3/4 finished with a weight loss program. We all think we're above average. Rather than spending so much effort cutting each other down to get the real pecking order, isn't it better to build each other up to fit our inner ideal?

People who try this should realize that--even though they themselves may not believe it-- if 98% of society thinks you're an asshole, then you're the asshole in society.

Some people are OK with this and feel it's worth the tradeoffs for the benefits of RH.

Regardless, I think that people should be more honest in general.

Great link. I also read Sam Harris's Kindle Single, Lying, earlier this year and enjoyed that as well.

I also read Lying and I thought it was really, really vapid. I would have liked Harris to go into more social techniques that allowed him to be honest without offending. Instead of that, which would have been very useful, Harris simply parroted the old "lying doesn't solve problems..." Honestly, Lying seems like something he pumped out in a short weekend because he hadn't released anything in a while. Very disappointed.

Personally, I like it as it was. Had it been a guide, it probably would have been much longer.

If it was worth taking seriously it also would have been much longer. Go read Sissela Bok's Lying: Moral choice in Public and Private Life then try taking Harris seriously.

Thanks. I'll look into it.

You may also like Mark Twain's "On the Decay of the Art of Lying".

link: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2572

What _is_ good is telling that girl or guy you like what you really think about them.

this reminds me of the great movie invention of lying. Imagine a world where there is no lying, even in the smallest sense as possible. Brutal honesty, that is. There aren't even cinemas in that world, you can imagine ; )

I've read this article three times in three years and every time I love it a bit more. It's crazy advice, of course -- but there is something about it, some deeper truth, that it hints at.

Error – pg. 1, par. 13:

There is no such thing as a "former Texan."

"Honesty" of this sort is nothing but an ego trip. You walk around like the cock of the walk, blurting out whatever little thought crosses your mind. As if you think it, it must be golden.

Well, here's some honesty for you: Nobody gives a shit.

Your opinions aren't interesting, and nobody cares. And if you want to have friends, you'll have to learn to act like an adult. An adult knows that compassion, sympathy, empathy, love, and tact are far more valuable than "honesty." These traits, which are proven (research!) to be the basis of strong, long-lasting and warm relationships, are all about the OTHER person, and rightfully so.

Make it all about you, on the other hand, and your precious little opinions, and your "honesty," will simply show the world that you're an arrested child in an adult body, crying out for attention.

When you're an adult and you actually need to deliver an uncomfortable truth to someone you love -- for their benefit, not because you want to -- then you have to do it with compassion, sympathy, empathy, love, and tact.

That means that before you even open your mouth, or think of how to say it, you ask yourself hard & long, "Will this actually help them? Will this actually help them change? Will this be motivational? Will this DO anything for them?" -- then if the answer is anything but "Yes, absolutely," you keep your damn mouth shut.

Nobody in the history of the world was helped by some egotistical, overgrown child saying "I think you're fat."

I up-voted you because yes, you are correct and I fear people who read the article won't get it.

But the article was written to highlight this - when you state honest opinions you ARE being a selfish prick.

There is a point in the article when it is suggested to write "I resent it when" or "I appreciate it when" - the choice between the two is where ego can interfere. If all you communicate is resentments (as the article plays up for entertainment), people will come to view you as a negative dingus not worth talking to.

But communicating honest, positive statements is what people should aim for - only going for negative when it absolutely needs to be said.

nothing but an ego trip. You walk around like the cock of the walk. Nobody gives a shit. Your opinions aren't interesting, and nobody cares. your precious little opinions, and your "honesty," will simply show the world that you're an arrested child in an adult body, crying out for attention.

Pot, meet kettle.

Pot, meet kettle.

This is a discussion forum for the purpose of discussing the validity of both an article and people's opinions. This is not a dinner party or a coffee meet up between two friends. You don't know me, I don't know you, and in my comment, "you" is abstract.

This is nothing like the same.

There's also the possibility that you're biased towards uncomfortable "truths", and that what you are saying is not what everyone is thinking. In this case, instead of admiring your courage and forthrightness, people just don't like you very much.

> Well, here's some honesty for you: Nobody gives a shit.

"All generalisations are false, including this one." -- Mark Twain

"you have to do it with compassion, sympathy, empathy, love, and tact".

I want to share this anonymously: my girlfriend has been steadily getting fatter, and I've always tried to be honest.

She once asked me "do you like me as I am?" referring to her body, and I made the mistake of telling her "yes, but I wouldn't want you to get fatter" (she was chubby at the time).

Since then, she put on 60 pounds; one day our lovemaking wasn't particularly enthusiastic, and she asked why - I made the mistake of replying with brutal honesty (though I tried to soften it) that her body didn't turn me on as much as before.

She now says she'll never be able to forgive me or to forget it (even though I've never referred to her weight anymore).

And being fat for someone who wasn't before and is sensitive is quite sensitive - honesty doesn't help. A little girl told her (like little girls might innocently do): "you're fat" and she's been awful for two days.

On a related issue, if someone can direct me to couples counseling online I'll be very grateful (I already go to a therapist once a week, but it's not enough). A startup in that space maybe? :)

Radical honesty is considered abuse, especially when your observations are 100% empirically true and spot-on and everyone can see it including the person targeted.

They wrote about this problem 3000 years ago. "Correct a fool and he will hate you, correct a wise man and he will love you".

I think you have come up with a great criteria for deciding when to be honest.

As someone who has lived a very honest life I can say with confidence, it doesn't work. It's made my life less happy, not more. I still do it out of habit, and also for the feeling of moral superiority I get, but if anything I am thinking about being less honest rather than more so. It just creates too many problems, especially if you are an entrepreneur or business person.

Also Kant wrote about it quite a bit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanuel_Kant#Moral_philosophy

As my grandmother used to say, it's only the truth and the truth can't hurt us - it may not be pleasant but its over and done with and we move on.

But I like to balance that with William Blake: "a truth thats told with bad intent is worth all the lies you can invent"

This is not a new idea. In Vedic philosophy this has been preached and practiced only by realized person. In fact, practicing telling only truth one becomes realized. For e.g Gandhi adopted this practice of speaking only the truth as that is one of the limb of Yoga.

What happens is the moment you take this resolve to speak only truth, your actions and thoughts become aware. So there is a very subtle refinement going internally as you keep practicing speaking the truth.

But I think it is more appropriate to speak only when you are asked about it. Just telling your thoughts just for the sake of speaking truth does not make sense.

This might be one of the worst articles I've ever read.

""I advocate never lying in personal relationships. But if you have Anne Frank in your attic and a Nazi knocks on the door, lie....I lie to any government official." (Blanton's politics are just this side of Noam Chomsky's.)"

I don't see how the quote is even remotely related to Chomsky's politics.

People are not perfectly rational beings.

It's irrational to ignore the realities of human emotion, perception and cognition.

The invention of lying (2009) - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1058017/

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