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I agree. The nature of our verbal communication is that they were implying to the children that this is a game and that they must copy each step. In contrast, had they said “your goal is to get the gummy bear. Do only those things necessary to get the treat” it would have gone much differently.

Even by not using ANY words and only having then children watch a person and then leaving them alone with the contraption would have gone differently. Some would likely have “played the game” because that is what we teach children. But at least some would have likely just gone for the treat.

In any case, it is an interesting thing to ponder!

I also wondered about the difference between doing this with young children and adult chimps.

I think it’s fairly obvious that if you gave the clear box test to a teenager or adult and said “get the treat out” they’d look at you funny and then many or most would just reach in and grab it. I think even in the black box, they’d probably look at it real hard and maybe try going straight for the treat after investigating the box a bit.

By contrast very young humans operate in “game mode” almost all the time, and are basically “playing along” with whatever game you put them in. It’s a lot of fun, and often silly.

So my question is, what about juvenile chimps? Do they also operate in game mode, or would they follow the adult chimp behavior of going straight for the reward?

They have tried this with juvenile non-human primates! For example, Horner & Whiten (2005) tried this with 2-6 year old chimpanzees. Clay & Tennie (2017) tried this with juvenile bonobos. Neither group overimitated. They do play, but overimitation is probably underpinned by the ability/proclivity to infer Gricean intentions, which non-human primates lack.

There is a strong normative element to this, as well as the play element you mentioned — I expect, as adults, we’ve all engaged in some form of overimitation as an act of conformity.

Yeah.

(1) It was presented as a game. It seemed like a game.

(2) People like ritual. This was clearly ritual.

Anecdotally, some human kids don't like being tested and will deliberately fuck with a researcher.

(I don't remember this, my mother was hidden behind a one way mirror.)

I had some pretty severe co-ordination issues as a child, no learning related problems - but fuck knows who decided that I needed to be evaluated on both fronts.

Anyway this woman comes in to test me with one of those boxes with different shaped holes in the top, and a matching block for each hole.

I grab a random block and try to shove it in a hole into which it obviously does not fit - and keep trying with the same hole until the woman gets up and leaves in frustration (she'd been trying to hint that I should perhaps try another hole).

The moment she left I quickly solved the puzzle.

>Children know the box is not magic.

are you sure about that?

It’s important to clarify this question. Children, especially young children, do not have a clear view of what is real and What is not real. The line is different for everyone, but I’d say at 7 or 8 that starts to come into focus. Even then, there are plenty of grown, intelligent adults who believe things without any substantial evidence.

I will say that kids are way smarter than we often give them credit for. They’re natural scientists, and I think we probably educate that kind of learning out of them.

In that case, I'll "rewrite" my comment:

modified quote> I watched the video, but I'm unconvinced. They tell the kid the box is "magic". Children now know the box IS magic. Children know how spells work in cartoon and books. So "magic" is a code word for "please copy all the silly steps as accurate as possible".

The main problem is that humans and chips get different instructions.