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I know some people aren't going to like reading this, but this is the reason I got an office job after working 2+ years remotely.

I am in my mid 20s, working as a software engineer. I have never worked in an office. I live alone in a city where I don't know anyone.

I haven't talked to another person in real life since Thanksgiving.

Will there be bad things about the office? I am 100% sure there will be. But for me the decision to not be remote wasn't even a want, but a need. I am slowly losing my mind, locked up in my apartment, 23 hours a day.

Before someone comments about "go to a rock climbing gym" or "go to a coffee shop" - I tried all of those things. It's not that simple. An office job is a very consistent way to talk to another human person in real life.

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Be really careful with this one. I spent my 20s working for startups, loved going to the office, and hanging out with friends outside work.

Then my manager quit. Or a power-hungry executive starts targeting your area, creating chaos. Or the company doesn't raise the funding it needs.

So, you quit, or get laid off, or fired. That family culture, and friends you saw every day and bonded with are either no where to be seen or the dynamic shifts so dramatically it becomes practically unbearable.

Each job I seem to stay in touch with 1 or 2 coworkers regularly, and am on good terms with a few dozen more. But in terms meeting your social needs, it ends up hurting a lot more when you realize you were all alone the entire time and your coworkers were just paid to talk to you.

This is part of why you see a lot more people in their 20s attending company functions or working in startup "family" cultures, and fewer in their 30s, 40s, or 50.

It's good that you're finding something to help address your loneliness. I would encourage you to try to find a few work friendships that you can take offline and outside of work to start building a social network that's divorced from where you're working. And if you have a difficult time doing that, then that's particularly a skill you should work on developing -- because as someone in my mid-30s, it's only going to get harder to make and maintain friendships from here on out.

This is a false dichotomy. There is value in the normal social interactions of a workplace even if they don't become lifetime friends. Seeing people during the day, small talk, having relationships come and go - these are healthy and enjoyable things even if they never get deeper.

> There is value in the normal social interactions of a workplace even if they don't become lifetime friends. Seeing people during the day, small talk, having relationships come and go - these are healthy and enjoyable things even if they never get deeper.

Definitely true, but it's a completely different kind of value than what you get from a stable circle of friends outside work. If you have the latter sorted out, than the former is a great addition because overcoming challenges together and spending a ton of time together leads to bonding, if shallow, and I've had lots and lots of fun with my "work besties" especially early in my career. Plus, since most people do spend a lot of time at work, might as well make that as pleasant as possible, and being well-connected and well-liked never hurts.

But if your social network is just your colleagues, then this sort of thing becomes liability since in all likelihood you'll lose all of them, possibly quite abruptly, possibly even when you actually need support. A lot of workplace friendships tend to not outlast a common place of employment for long, if at all, so changing jobs means you'll also ditch your social circle, and having to start over again and again isn't fun after the third time or so, nor is discovering that some people become icy once they're sufficiently ahead in the rat race. Workplaces tend to be an environment well-suited for relatively shallow but fun connections, but quite badly suited for forming deep, long-lasting ones, and a healthy social life needs both.

Hence I second grandparent's advice to focus on building a stable social network outside work (possibly even from work friendships where there is a strong connection and a common hobby or the like, but that should happen outside the office and over non-work topics). It does get harder to make new connections later in life (at least I find it so); better not tie those that you manage to make to a workplace that may well try to foster and exploit this exact thing because it serves the interests of the business to have you depend on their office for social warmth.

That's also not necessarily tied to WFH or from an office; some people may find it easier to do this in a WFH setting, others will be very successful mining the office for actual friends to go hiking with on the weekend.

As grandparent, I would add that my advice is also in the context of the original comment. If you're going crazy and feeling locked in your apartment for 23 hours per day, then you definitely don't have a strong social support network. If your solution is to get an in-person job for social contact, that's a great first step... just make sure to take the subsequent steps to use those contacts to build a non-work social network so you have the support you really need.

Many of the comments/responses to me seem to be missing the original context. Yes, all friendships come and go. Yes, interaction isn't family and family isn't interaction. Yes, you can carry on friendships with people after you quit.

Everyone is saying true things. But as someone who has moved cross country to work at a startup, treated the startup as my social life, and then left that job... I was devastated by the number of people who I thought were close friends who basically didn't talk to me after I left the company. I learned that lesson in a really rough way at 26.

Now, I take my own advice, and when I meet people through work that I get along well with, I try to move that friendship outside of work so hopefully it has a chance to outlast the job and be an ongoing social connection. That also opens my network up to their friend network. It also gives me social support beyond someone to gripe about work with.

That's all I'm saying. When you have no friends or support, having daily interactions is good/necessary, but try to use that to solve the main problem: having no friends or support.

> If you're going crazy and feeling locked in your apartment for 23 hours per day, then you definitely don't have a strong social support network. If your solution is to get an in-person job for social contact, that's a great first step

Someone in a place like that should take whatever socializing they can get, because such a situation is dangerous in itself, loneliness kills and the lonelier one becomes, the harder it is to get back out, socializing is a muscle that wants exercise. Certainly not arguing against an office job and coworkers as a first step, just don't leave it at that, is what I'm saying (as are you)

> But if your social network is just your colleagues, then this sort of thing becomes liability since in all likelihood you'll lose all of them, possibly quite abruptly, possibly even when you actually need support.

Yep. Moved for a job, only real social circle that "stuck" there was coworkers. When people started leaving and the company started to fall apart, my "social circle" fell to bits.

A lot of friends have similar stories, and a lot of companies in tech try foster this environment where everyone in the office is a whole ecosystem of mates. Which makes you not really bother put the work in to make friends outside of work.

> But if your social network is just your colleagues,

I found this to be especially true in academia ... I spent about 10 years at the same university in different groups and have not kept many of the friends I made along the way.

This goes both ways, I spend a lot of that time in one group and got to see several "generations" of students and colleagues come an go ... After a while you just stop trying to have deep connections because most are there only temporarily.

(Also at some point students just become to young to befriend :-) )

I think you’re both right, just don’t put all your eggs in one basket. Sure having office “friends” or social interactions at the office is a good thing but just make sure those aren’t your only social contacts.

Here here

The parent comment is talking about human interaction, not human interdependency. You can acknowledge and hold the belief that working in an office causes constant human interaction AND not treat everyone there as family or become ingrained in that lifestyle.

Counterpoint: as a 35 year old man, I met all of my closest friends at work, in the office, and I still talk to 3-4 daily.

I work remote now and making new friends has become significantly harder because I no longer have consistent repeated contact with anyone. Outside of works, meeting a new person tends to be a one-off far more often than not.

They said: > Counterpoint: as a 35 year old man, I met all of my closest friends at work, in the office, and I still talk to 3-4 daily.

You said: >Each job I seem to stay in touch with 1 or 2 coworkers regularly,

You're describing the same thing - you will keep a friend or two from your old jobs, but it's not a whole social group.

The lead with

> So, you quit, or get laid off, or fired. That family culture, and friends you saw every day and bonded with are either no where to be seen or the dynamic shifts so dramatically it becomes practically unbearable.

As well as the distinction between work friends and a real social network was what I was attempting to counterpoint. It's little confusing because they backtrack at the end and say to use work to build a social group, which is what I'm promoting.

I'm saying start building the social network while you're in the job, and don't let the company's social infrastructure be your social network or else you'll be screwed when you leave that job.

If OP is feeling better because they can go to bowling night with their team, and feel connected and bonded... then that's not sufficient long term. If they meet one or two people who they seem to jive with and suggest meeting up outside of work for bowling... then that's a good way to start a social network that'll outlast their job and potentially not land them in the misery they were in originally.

Startups, especially in the Bay Area, will often promote the former to make people feel engaged in their work and to scratch that itch for connection. But in some ways that works against your own longer-term social needs.

Makes sense!

> Each job I seem to stay in touch with 1 or 2 coworkers regularly, and am on good terms with a few dozen more. But in terms meeting your social needs, it ends up hurting a lot more when you realize you were all alone the entire time and your coworkers were just paid to talk to you.

Yeah, exactly - you'll probably make a few good work friends who you'll convert to just friends and then keep in touch with afterwards, but for the rest the common link is the work and once that's gone so is the connection.

I'm good friends with many of my former coworkers from the office (boring FAANG 9-5 job, not a startup). It's easy to chat, make lunch plans, go drinking, etc when you're all working together in the same space. Having said that, we were all in our 20s and early 30s, so I think you're onto something. There are plenty of young people around to hang out with, but not so many middle aged ones.

Friendships made in any context might end as people move or take on different commitments.

Friendships made in the workplace aren't better than friendships made in other contexts, but they aren't necessarily worse, either. A lot of coworker friendships may end when the working relationship ends, but it's possible to carry on a friendship with a former coworker after you are no longer working together.

The problem, I think, is that only the people who don't like reading this leave comments.

So here I am, commenting that I feel exactly the same way as you. This is the reason I went back to the office

I used to think I was someone who did NOT like the light social interactions in the office. After the pandemic lockdowns I thought I'd continue working from home. After six months of that I realized that I did enjoy the office.

Turns out I don't like small talk, but I like having a small group of people I can bond with over a meal or whatever. Its a lighter interaction. It's still professional, but it helps me.

And before anyone asks I do have that outside of office. That wasn't enough for me.

I can totally understand this perspective; we're social animals.

But I'm also mindful that the reverse has applied to a lot of people both throughout history and the present day, who had to be away from their families for work. Or situations where a couple have to choose who gives up their career in order to live in the same place. Or people jammed into overcrowded apartments because that's all they can afford in order to get to where the work is.

No easy answers, but the people who say remote work has been liberatory for them aren't lying.

(I'm grateful that I can have a partial-wfh experience where I go into the office two days a week, I think that's a compromise that works for me. I like being in the office, it's a nice office, I just don't like commuting.)

I'm with you. Other than parents, I do not understand people who can work from home all day...and like it.

I felt like I was in my own prison, made even worse by moving to a suburb where the nearest non-chain coffee shop is over two hours by foot. It drove me nuts.

What I did that seems to be working really well is this:

- Drive to a gym that's about 30 minutes away from a coffee shop, walking distance

- Work out

- Walk to coffee shop

- Work for a few hours

- Walk back to my car

- Drive back home, or (likely) to some other place

- Close my work day.

However, I'd prefer to commute to an office, work in the office, walk somewhere interesting during lunch break, walk back, gym, then home.

Having worked from home for 20 years now, it was great pre-pandemic. Once the office crowd came online over the last few years, having no working from home skills and wanting to do things as if they were still in the office, then I can see why you'd rather be in the office. This office at a distance model is quite horrid.

What do you think are the key working from home skills? For some roles such as sales and marketing I can definitely see the challenges with working remotely.

Me too man. I burned out from my previous company, which was already in a bit of crisis, but I think I prolonged my suffering with the disconnect that comes from WFH. Don't get me wrong, there were many things I liked about WFH, but I underestimated my ability to isolate myself as an unhealthy coping mechanism and get away with it.

I'm at a new firm now, in a better role, but also in office - and I'm constantly shocked by how much I enjoy going into the office. Like you, I'm in my 20s, and I do have an active social life outside of work whether WFH or not. For now, I prefer being in the office (on a good team, with a good culture and work-life balance, on a good project) than being WFH at a cool company with a mediocre culture.

This doesn't help the actual problem for me. Which is much more about embodied effort and tangible outcome.

You can feel yourself swing a pick or cut through an onion, pay attention to the minute physical, aural stimuli, experience how small adjustments to the angle or force or whatever affect those feelings and the outcome of the next motion. Nearly all kinds of work have this embodiment in some form, even things like washing the dishes have so much sensory experience in them.

Coding just... doesn't. It has analogs to those things, in refining techniques or "honing" "tools" but without the embodiment something essential is missing from my connection to the work. I swear I think this is why mechanical keyboards are so popular right now.

And yeah it's also true that I have a lot of other places to experience those but there seems to be something important about it tied up with my experience of work per se. Being in an office doesn't help me at all because it's not a social problem really.

A few months into the pandemic I overheard someone who eventually become a friend, a welder, ask "do you have a computer job or a real job?" It's a dismissive way to phrase it but I knew immediately that this is what he was talking about.

This happens even in university situation. Before moving for study abroad, I thought I had made connections at former university, until I realized I didn’t. Recently I had few episodes of really wanting to talk to people, but none of them were available. However, they hit up everytime, they need something. Might be my personal nature too. But I realized this recently. So I stopped talking to them either. I thought it was because of the distance, but I had few friends from university who moved to same place as me. Then after going on one trip with them, I realized everyone was phony and I didn’t have friends at all. Now I have accepted I will be alone. So I will never put trust in any form of social relationships. I can control the algorithms but not people. Human are selfish, so I would rather be selfish and happy than social and depressed. It doesn’t mean I am antisocial. Simply put, I put numbers before emotions. Performance over humanity. Machine over heart. I might hangout with people but there won’t be any deep connections. I will crack jokes, but won’t bother helping them in need. Learnt my lesson the hard way. Most of the time, it’s best to say “No”.

Anecdote from someone in their mid-30s:

I've spent the majority of my professional life fully remote. The few years I have spent in an office, I've really appreciated. These days, I do miss the meat-space office and having in-person interactions with coworkers from time to time.

Pros and cons for sure, and I guess the factors that tipped me to still being remote again can be summarized as

* country and location where the lifestyle suits me

* stimulating and rewarding work where I feel I can make an impact in something I believe in while working with skilled people

* not moving every couple of years

* not spending half my free time in commute

If my current work magically had an office in town tomorrow I'd 100% start going there.

My guess that it'll come down a lot to the people you'll be working with.

Anyway, sounds like you made the right call! Good luck and hope you found something that brings you joy!

Yeah, I don't blame you at all. All my 20s were spent working at software companies in the office.

I went remote when I turned 30. I am very grateful I spent that time working in the office, making friends, and hanging out. It was a lot of fun.

Super important warning though: make sure that you still work on developing some friendships in your city outside of the office.

I've kinda fell into that trap myself during the pandemic. Both my team and our customers are really cool, and I spend a lot of time on calls, so I didn't feel any need to meet people outside of work.

But then I took some time off and realized I barely have any friends in my city. I fixed it since then and met some great people, but at the time it wasn't a pleasant experience.

     An office job is a very consistent way to talk 
     to another human person in real life.

Well, it's certainly a way, but your coworkers are (essentially) forced to be there and to talk to you.

I have made many genuine lifelong friends this way, but "forced proximity to another person whose finances depend on their presence" is not always going to be the healthiest basis for human relationships.

     Before someone comments about "go to a rock 
     climbing gym" or "go to a coffee shop"

I don't want to extrapolate/interpolate too much from your words here, but simply showing up at those places seems like a very non-ideal way to make friends. I'm sometimes up for chitchat with randos, but often not, and I'm not really looking to form lasting friendships.

The real key is to join groups who do things together, whether it's gaming or hiking or volunteering or whatever. Those are true shared passions, interests, and experiences.

Forgive me if I've misunderstood your words. Perhaps you already tried things like that, e.g. you were part of a group at the rock climbing gym or something like that.

> Before someone comments about "go to a rock climbing gym" or "go to a coffee shop" - I tried all of those things. It's not that simple. An office job is a very consistent way to talk to another human person in real life.

There's something to be said for joining a club or joining a church if so inclined.

It's much easier to create a community once you get rolling, but very hard to get started.

Getting a job in an office is good, it'll help build friendships. I'd just caution against that being the only community you're apart of. I personally try to be apart of 3-4 communities, it keeps me busy and makes my life more robust if one community is impacted.

"Rock climbing", "going to a coffee shop", isn't a community - those are effectively solo activities. You may get some human contact, but it's not someone you can call when you're sick.

> "Rock climbing" ... [is] effectively solo

I disagree with this one, though. It depends on how you look at it. Rock climbing CAN be an activity you go to, put earbuds in, and block out the rest of the world, and sure, many do... but if you approach it with an open mindset, talk to others at the gym, make friends, then you are already ahead of the game, because those friends already share your same hobby (vs. finding a friend at a social event).

Anecdata:

- My cousin started rock climbing because of her fiance. His entire wedding party was made up of rock climbing friends

- Another two friends I know from the gym met at said gym and got hitched

- Dissatisfied with the "phone number whiteboard", I started a local discord group which now spans two gyms, we chat online but meet up when convenient. I found one of my very good friends from that group.

What’s an example of a club you have in mind?

Depends on your area: board game clubs are common in cities, shooting clubs are common in the country, a soccer club, what ever.

It really depends on your interests, but there's bound to be something where people gather on a regular cadence and you can join.

A bit late reply, but dancing classes. I have met a lot of people in my salsa class, we organize parties from time to time.

I think people often memetically comment that because they've found they like it or found it to be a cheap way they can buy into hypothetically socializing. I like coffee shops and would happily meet there with a friend, but for someone with a scarcity of organic interests that would naturally take them there, they need to explore why that is and why it seems troublesome first. You can't or shouldn't try to just hack your way into a good social life by adopting arbitrary social activities; though many of them might be fun to explore among a long list of potential other things to explore.

Many people move to cities from the suburbs of their hometown where everyone they knew just happened because they were already around them for the specific reason that they had to be around them day in and day out, like an office job in a way.

My biggest recommendations would be to explore the area and be open to trying new things, and then also to meet your coworkers and their friends eventually, if you can.

So many people I know back home have only ever made "friends" with their coworkers, and if that job went away, so would their "friends", because they are linked in only that way. If you meet your coworkers friends somehow though, the only reason that relationship would flourish to the point of friendship is that you each felt that it should, because you discovered common ground or realized you both had chemistry.

Likewise, another thing I recommend to people who feel isolated, is to try and find something you like doing for 2-3 hours a day, once or twice a week, somewhat around other people. Could be the gym, could be hanging at a coffee shop, could be many other things, you just need some common faces regularly so you have the opportunity to discover if you vibe with them. It's important that you'd do it regardless of anyone else being there too. You need to be down for it, and anything else that happens should be considered a lucky side-effect.

So yes, it's not that simple, and you're absolutely right.

> I know some people aren't going to like reading this, but this is the reason I got an office job after working 2+ years remotely.

Nobody dislikes reading about how someone finds value for themselves in going into the office.

Some people would greatly dislike reading about how everyone should go into the office.

Yes and no. Living in a city defeats the purpose of working remotely. If you're remote with no dependants, you have ultimate freedom. Pick an outdoor activity and move east from your working timezone. Stay at a hostel, they usually have private rooms. Do said activity in the morning, work during the day, hang out with people from the hostel at night.

If you're in the city, then yeah, go to an office. Preferably one that is walking distance from a good pub or a good music venue.

There is no single purpose to working remotely.

> Before someone comments about "go to a rock climbing gym"

Not all climbing gyms are exactly social spaces.

Some have a good culture of being a social space etc, others don't.

I've been a member of both types - the current place I climb (the only one in my current city) really lacks the social element.

I suspect there's a survivorship bias esque thing happening where people only really report on the sociable climbing walls, and nobody talks about the others.

The general air of sociability at my gym has gone up and down over the years. The culture seems to be driven by a handful of A-type personalities, and when less of them are showing up the place feels a fair bit less extroverted.

I have a very large friendship network outside of work (to the point of it being overbearing). I still hate working from home. It’s convenient, efficient and soulless. My excitement from work is solving problems with people in person, and the human element is a critical component.

If you woke up tomorrow and found you were the only person left on the world, would you be inspired to create? I wouldn’t.

I think happiness with remote work depends a lot on whether you live with a family / roommates who you see regularly.

> "go to a rock climbing gym"

why not go skiing on the weekends. My eyes and body was degenerating from sitting in front of screens all day. I had crazy cervical degeneration and poor eyesight from using computers all day. Skiing is helping me manage the constant cervical pain and helping my eyes relax.

Escape the screens before its too late.

I don't want to hop on the "just do this" train, but I'll say that sitting on a ski lift and talking with a random stranger about their life is a simple joy. You probably won't see that person ever again on a big mountain, but you can learn a lot about them. Underrated social activity.

What percent of Americans live in a place where they can just casually go skiing on the weekend? It's an okay option if you live in Denver, Salt Lake City, or Seattle (although even in those cities you'll be spending 1-2 hours sitting in traffic both ways which isn't everyone's cup of tea) but I can't imagine anyone in Southern or Midwestern states doing it.

That is the whole point of being remote! The parent poster is already all alone in a city, why not be all alone somewhere you can ski? Or surf/kitesurf/SUP/skate/paraglide/etc

There are so many activities out there that require specific geography. Normally you have to choose, a long commute to the office or a long commute to nature. But when you're remote, you can move somewhere near an activity you want to do!

Working remote and living in a city where you don't know anyone is almost definitely the wrong choice.

There are ski resorts throughout the appalachian mountains, all the way down to North Carolina.

> I know some people aren't going to like reading this

That's because it's an unpopular opinion in an industry teeming with reclusive and rabidly antisocial people.

But it's one that I subscribe to and indeed all the engineers at the company I work for do, as well. The fact is, at remote jobs I made zero relationships even though the people were generally approachable and easy to talk to. I got one job with a person I already had good relationships and wouldn't you know but our relationship never got much deeper until I flew out to Utah to simply hang out with him.

That was what made me switch to an on-site job, and 14 months in, I think I've made the right decision. Office shenanigans, small talk, an overheard joke are what really make the relationship. To say nothing of breaking bread with your office companions! Who likes eating alone every day? I've also found that the artificiality of Zoom sessions really ruin mundane interactions. I communicated less with people whilst working remotely, and the communications themselves were noticeably less satisfying.

Do activities that require interaction with other people. Sign up for a dance class, or a hiking group or a book club or a marital arts class or chess club and commit to going two to three times a week. You’ll make a lot more friends not related to your job.

I worked in an office that I really enjoyed. Then due to covid, ended up working remote, and then taking a remote only job. It's a weird feeling thinking that such a drastic social change may basically be permanent.

Try a crossfit gym with group classes and attend at the same time a few times a week. You'll get to know people and be involved in a "shared struggle" which is a good way to build friendships.

Triathlon culture is like this too, most endurance people are a bit insular and weird, but triathlon culture (owing likely to the three sports and socially interacting with people in those three spheres) was a lot more social.

Plus, triathlon is inherently so much more interesting to talk about. You get all the bike gear stuff, there's talking about good routes to both run and bike, there's destinations to go to for training and racing.

Finally, you get to interact with swimmers, who are frankly the most fun and accepting of the three, I think owing to the fact that it involves people that are basically spending time together naked wearing only the thinnest, smallest amount of clothing possible.

also adding my voice to say I did a very similar thing. 2 years WFH (as a young single male) was a miserable experience for me. I switched to an office job and I’m much happier.

So you're using the office as a crutch for your social life. Don't drag us all back into the office just for that.

Plus you're destroying the planet commuting every day.

> I know some people aren't going to like reading this

Sure, just don't push your preferences on other people. That's really the issue of work remote or not.

Oh yeah, I couldn't do it alone. I love working remotely, but that's because I have my wife, dogs, and nearby family to keep me more or less sane.

He took the red pill!

> Before someone comments about "go to a rock climbing gym" or "go to a coffee shop" - I tried all of those things. It's not that simple.

So, you are choosing the cheapest/easiest of the options out there: to talk to people that are forced to see you in person every day of the week. To that, I can only say: good luck.

While you spin it negatively, for a 20 y/o especially that is valuable life experience. I think they are wise for making that change.

You aren't going to like everyone you meet, but you need to cooperate with them. And some can't be cooperated with, and you need to handle THAT.

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