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Comment by voxadam | Hacker News Reader

This is very interesting but I'm curious why the researchers chose to focus on pressurized commercial toilets as apposed to the non-pressurized, gravity-fed residential toilets that most of us[0] likely use far more frequently.

[0] I admit, I might be showing my US based western bias here; I'm not sure.

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The people you share your home toilet with are bound to spread any pathogens they're carrying to you in multiple way. You are likely touching the same things, eating the same things, touching them, kissing them, etc. A public toilet may be used by hundreds of people each day and is the single common point of contact and thus carries more potential for spread of pathogen

But the pathogens your genetically close relatives carry, are ones they did not shrug off, and are probably better suited to stick around you too.

(Just a thought, loads of holes in it, but it may be true in some edge cases.)

You probably share enough other contact with such people that you will get what they have anyway.

In fact it would be interested to compare all sorts of toilets under this aspect. Perhaps there is one that is superior.

On the other hand it's interesting not just to see water particles flying through the room but perhaps also where they are coming from. If you design a toilet that sucks everything out first (without a splash) and the rapidly replenishes the water (in a splashy fashion), the percentage of pathogens might be much lower.

Toilets on trains (at least in Germany) work that way. Presumably because it cuts down on the amount of water necessary to flush, but may have other benefits as well.

...as do the facilities on commercial airplanes.

> In fact it would be interested to compare all sorts of toilets under this aspect. Perhaps there is one that is superior.

You could also just close the lid before you flush?

Lids must remain up always. For family peace, I removed the lid completely.

What?

How's using the lid a controversial thing at all?

The commenter is likely snarking about living with a female (or females). Some can be, er, particular about the toilet lid.

(Yes, the solution here is to put the lid back up when done, but then that ruins a bit of the GP's (I think) intended humor.)

You're thinking of the seat, not the lid. Although women are wrong about this. The standard should be a single seat manipulation per urinary event. That's the only fair way to do it. Why should the men manipulate the seat twice and women never?

If your goal is to minimize pathogens transferred from seat to hand, you can think of the man's second seat manipulation as "zero cost" in the sense that their hand is already contaminated and they'll need to wash thoroughly

Man 2x, Woman 0x = 1 "contamination" cost incurred Man 1x, Woman 1x = 2 "contamination" cost incurred

This is an interesting view. Like anything else it's important to establish what the goals actually are.

Agreed, lid goes down prior to each flush. Guys raise the seat if they are standing up, otherwise anyone else using the toilet just needs to raise and lower the lid.

Yeah, this has long been my response to the stupid seat-up/seat-down controversy. Fine, lid's going down too. That way stuff can't get knocked or dropped in, and it reduces flush-spray, so it's better anyway.

No, two of the relationships I’ve been in have involved women who absolutely loathed if the lid was down, or if the seat was up. It had to be lid-up, seat-down at all times.

I had to teach my (female) partner to close the lid, too. She got it after a while.

Huh? You open the thing, sit down to do your business, then close it. It's two simple manipulations for everyone, and for civility.

Some men are learning to urinate sitting down. Think about it, if that toilet is sending aerosols into the air, what is your stream of urine doing as you stand distantly from the toilet? Also, if you've ever cleaned toilets then you know about the accuracy of anyone who insists on standing.

https://www.theunconventionalroute.com/men-pee-sitting-down/ or just search using terms like: men are learning to pee sitting down

I piss sitting down plenty and always have (sometimes I just want to sit and relax a bit, you know? Or sometimes you feel like you've got a fart in the mix but aren't entirely sure it won't be a shart, so you sit just to be safe) but I do find it doesn't quite empty me out as well. Standing's better, like, anatomically, for some reason.

Studies have shown that there is no difference for healthy adult males, but sitting is actually better for evacuation as you start to get an enlarged prostate (Roughly half of men over 50).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4106761/

Lovely, maybe I'm getting one of those way younger than I'm "supposed" to, LOL. I think the first time I noticed a (small, but non-zero) difference between the two was in my late 20s.

You still splash when sitting. You'd need to measure it to know what results in less aerosol exposure (particularly considering the distance-to-face factor), even though it probably doesn't matter anyway. And anyone who has ever cleaned toilets knows that the women's room is not a paradise of cleanliness.

Why do you want an open air toilet?

Just like rules are there to be followed, the lid is there to be closed. Ordnung muss sein.

Yes rules must be adhered to, and removing the lid ensures compliance with correct rules.

You can, but closing the lid doesn't seal anything.

If you put the lid down before you flush to protect yourself from all the dirtiness, doesn’t that mean the lid (which you have to touch to put up/down) is itself extremely dirty?

> If you put the lid down before you flush to protect yourself from all the dirtiness, doesn’t that mean the lid (which you have to touch to put up/down) is itself extremely dirty?

The parts of the lid that you touch to raise and lower it are probably relatively distant from the parts of the lid that would receive the brunt of any splashback.

The part I touch to lower is the top of the lid, so relatively distant. But the part I touch to raise is the underside of the lid, at the edge. While it might not be in the most direct line-of-fire, I would expect it would actually get a decent amount of particles because it is adjacent to an air gap, where pressure would escape. But I'm no aerodynamicist — just speculating!

Why would you touch the underside of the lid to raise the it? You can't even reach the underside properly before you've opened the lid.

In any case, just use a piece of toilet paper to touch the lid, if you are concerned.

Remember to wash your hands.

That works as long as you don't touch anything after opening the lid, before washing. Like your phone, for example.

Or the door

Most of the spray will hit the broad inside of the lid.

When you move the lid, you only touch the outer rim at one or two places.

You can use a bit of toilet paper to protect your hands, and wash them afterwards, too.

There are no lids on squat toilets.

In the US, commercial toilets like the one tested do not have lids. Probably for ease of maintenance and (most likely) a misguided notion that not having a lid is more hygienic and easier to clean. These are toilets found in office buildings, shopping centers, airports, etc.

Anybody know if commercial toilets in UK and EU tend to have lids?

Not sure about UK but EU at least tends to have fully enclosed stalls (no gaps above, below, or between the partitions) in public restrooms which should hopefully reduce aerosol spread.

In the UK we usually have lids, unless it's been vandalised.

In France, I generally don't see lids on public toilets. In fact, its pretty common to see toilets without seats---vandalized or perhaps removed for maintenance, I'm not sure. (Maybe someone French has an idea why the seats are often missing/removed?)

It's actually cultural, lid and seat presence varies all over the world.

Prepare to be amazed:

Toilets of the World

https://toilet-guru.com/

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20505602

(2019; 266 points, 190 comments)

For example, in some places this is normal and acceptable / desirable: https://toilet-guru.com/pictures/greece-kastraki-dscf1764.jp...

If you travel a lot in the US, you can go weeks without using a toilet with a lid. Many/most midrange business-focused hotels have commercial style lidless toilets, and save for custom Toto washlet boutique office setups demanded by Americans who have had the pleasure of spending time in asia, almost no commercial office or workspace in the US has lidded toilets.

> If you travel a lot in the US, you can go weeks without using a toilet with a lid.

“Achievement unlocked”

Commercial toilets are designed or engineered, but evidently not very well.

And they never have a lid you can close to avoid the spray.

Oh, that's just American weirdness. Toilets in most of the rest of the world are saner. They also typically have a proper seat, instead of the U shape required by law in many places in the US.

That's required by law? I thought it was just a cost saving measure (like everything else about US...Everything)

What's the purpose?

It’s included by reference as part of the universal plumbing code. There isn’t a “toilet seat act of 1927” or something.

The original intent was to make it easier for women to clean the perineal area without contacting a surface, and reduces genital contact with a surface.

How do I know this? My wife was on a safety committee in a past job where there was a workplace injury claim related to this topic. In our case, there was an automated toilet cover dispenser, which made the round seat code compliant.

> It’s included by reference as part of the universal plumbing code. There isn’t a “toilet seat act of 1927” or something.

Yes. But that standard is being enforced by laws (and perhaps other legal mechanisms) in many places in the US. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Plumbing_Code

I believe it's mostly a matter of hygiene, less contact area for your genitals.

The rest of the world also has no problem with bidets, here in the US we prefer smearing it around with paper like peanut butter until it’s good enough

That’s pretty much standard in all western countries I’ve visited.

Speak for yourself, my family is buying bidets for 7 or 8 other families. We have two.

They are very popular in Singapore, too. Though very different from what eg the Japanese have.

> Toilets in most of the rest of the world are saner. They also typically have a proper seat

Rest of the world? What about the places with squat toilets? Those are common in many places in the "rest of the world", and they don't even have seats!

Pooping while squatting is healthier, so maybe that qualifies as saner too.

It's also just, really damn effective. If you are ever having trouble squeezing one out on our antiquated and stupidly un-designed porcelain throne, get your legs higher so you are closer to squatting, and consider investing in a stool to put your feet on.

If you read carefully, you will notice that I wrote 'most of the rest of the world' exactly because of those caveats.

Here in Singapore we have both styles of toilets.

The last time I saw a serious study on the issue, which did include lid testing, the lid did little to stop the spray. It just blows out from the sides under the seat.

Clearly we need over engineered toilet lids that seal all around with double locks.

Or perhaps even if they do spray in all directions it's not quite as horrible as it's made out to be.

Probably with one way valves so they can flush despite the seal. I agree with the idea that it is probably not a big deal. Good for headlines grossing people out, but probably a non-issue for average humans with functioning immune systems.

Commercial toilets are amazing in Japan, they usually do have lids.

"In Japan, these high-tech toilets are everywhere: hotels, restaurants, bus stations, rest stops and around 80% of homes."

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2020/02/25/808791622/why-...

The quote is somewhat exaggerated but mostly true. I've even found the public toilets to be incredibly clean. While it is possible to occasionally find older porcelain squat toilets they are becoming very rare.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=public+toilets+in+japan

Or you get a squatter toilette. Also you need to bring your own paper for a lot of public toilettes. Though it has been almost 20 years since I last visited. At the time I wondered why they handed out so many advertising Kleenex travel size packs. It was for the train station bathroom.

I think squat pots are anatomically better than simply sitting.

I mean those commercial toilets are what you'll find in a lot of office environments, schools, stores, etc etc. And it's the time when you're likely present in a room for someone else's flush. And, you also have no idea of who's using it. In a household, one will probably have an okay sense if someone else is sick (eg flu).

According to Slavoj Žižek, Germans love Hermeneutic stool diagnostics.

>Žižek on toilets. Slavoj Žižek during an architecture congress in Pamplona, Spain.

>The German toilets, the old kind -- now they are disappearing, but you still find them. It's the opposite. The hole is in front, so that when you produce excrement, they are displayed in the back, they don't disappear in water. This is the German ritual, you know? Use it every morning. Sniff, inspect your shits for traces of illness. It's high Hermeneutic. I think the original meaning of Hermeneutic may be this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics

>Hermeneutics (/ˌhɜːrməˈnjuːtɪks/)[1] is the theory and methodology of interpretation, especially the interpretation of biblical texts, wisdom literature, and philosophical texts. Hermeneutics is more than interpretive principles or methods we resort to when immediate comprehension fails. Rather, hermeneutics is the art of understanding and of making oneself understood.

>“In a traditional German toilet, the hole into which shit disappears after we flush is right at the front, so that shit is first laid out for us to sniff and inspect for traces of illness. In the typical French toilet, on the contrary, the hole is at the back, i.e. shit is supposed to disappear as quickly as possible. Finally, the American (Anglo-Saxon) toilet presents a synthesis, a mediation between these opposites: the toilet basin is full of water, so that the shit floats in it, visible, but not to be inspected. [...] It is clear that none of these versions can be accounted for in purely utilitarian terms: each involves a certain ideological perception of how the subject should relate to excrement. Hegel was among the first to see in the geographical triad of Germany, France and England an expression of three different existential attitudes: reflective thoroughness (German), revolutionary hastiness (French), utilitarian pragmatism (English). In political terms, this triad can be read as German conservatism, French revolutionary radicalism and English liberalism. [...] The point about toilets is that they enable us not only to discern this triad in the most intimate domain, but also to identify its underlying mechanism in the three different attitudes towards excremental excess: an ambiguous contemplative fascination; a wish to get rid of it as fast as possible; a pragmatic decision to treat it as ordinary and dispose of it in an appropriate way. It is easy for an academic at a round table to claim that we live in a post-ideological universe, but the moment he visits the lavatory after the heated discussion, he is again knee-deep in ideology.” -Slavoj Žižek

I wish there were more modern thinkers like Zizek.

Is it supposed to float? I don’t think I’ve ever had a poo that floated.

You have your guts to thank for that.

Where's dang and his helpful links to recent relevant discussions when you need him? I'm happy to drop this in:

Why some feces float and others sink (phys.org)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33691619

https://phys.org/news/2022-11-feces.html

There needs to be another "fart content" dimension to the Bristol Stool Scale.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_stool_scale

In the old school German (and dutch) toilets, the shit lands on basically a shelf, for inspection.

You then flush it and it fucks off into the abyss.

The reason for the "poop inspection shelf" apparently was so you could take a quick look at your turd and see if it displayed signs of illness. Like say, blood.

Zizek is fashionable nonsense and is a charlatan and hack at the same level as Jacques Lacan (who he also cites a lot)

Better to avoid their kind of drivel.

Oh, the poop shelf, so you can examine your stool before you send it into the abyss.

They are also occurring in the Netherlands.

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