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Comment by DiggyJohnson | Hacker News Reader

What is the actual importance of this rhetoric / labeling discussion over all emerging domestic news stories? Do you not feel that it constantly gets in the way of an actual discussion. I feel like this topic has been ongoing for over a decade.

There are so many ways to describe the world. This is being described as a “[premeditated] attack”. Is there some ulterior motive I’m missing?

Sorry to seem to ranty over this, but it seems like an extremely forced meme at this point. I’m usually arguing for the importance of words, but on this specific criticism, genuinely, I beg the question, who effing cares?

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There's been tons of times Reddit has been littered with 5000+ upvoted threads attributing attacks to x and then the next few days the post explaining it wasn't x gets 300 upvotes and quietly dies.

If I've learned anything being terminally online it's that it's always better to wait until some basic evidence comes out rather than to speculate and get into flame wars over it.

The legal system is who effing cares, in this instance. There are different mechanisms and agencies that deal with terrorist vs premeditated-but-non-political-in-objective acts.

I think a lot of the desire for specificity in terminology that you’re seeing demanded is stemming from a desire for people to see organizations step in that truly have the resources, investigative experience, and political will to accomplish progress in this arena — for example certain offices of the FBI.

I want no political will in an investigation. I want the truth found.

Political will results in the opposite.

“Political will” is a phrase that refers to the ability of an entity to power through the partisan demands from all sides, while still maintaining and achieving their stated goal. In this case, as you desire, the truth.

So I believe we are in agreement, once terms are fully understood on all sides.

It’s important to me that we not dilute the meaning of important phrases by assuming they add up to no more than the sum of their discrete elements — it coarsens discussion and incites unnecessary rhetoric.

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My friend, I fear you have misunderstood what I'm saying. My statement does not call for any "summing up" of anything -- the opposite, in fact.

Please do not be confused by the word "political" within the phrase "political will". A brief crash-course: "political" does not equal "partisan", it equals "of or concerning to the sphere of politics". You are conflating political with partisan -- this exact error is the root of a vast percentage of the needless rhetoric and policy misapprehensions that so confuse our current national conversation.

To be plain: I would like the most effective LEO working under the absolute-least-partisan-influence possible. That is to say: effective law enforcement agents who cut through the bullshit on all sides.

Given your misunderstanding of the above, while assuming you're responding in good faith (and not intentionally confusing the issue), I must conclude that your vocabulary in this particular arena does not quite match your passion.

I would urge you in the future, when confronted with a definition that differs from that you intuit, to ensure that you truly grok what's being said, rather than assuming naivety/partisan pearl-clutching.

Again, it's important to have a shared basis from which compromise can be achieved -- it is perhaps the most fundamental requirement of society.

Fair enough, I misunderstood your meaning.

Because the US doesn't have a federal domestic terrorism statute, and so things that we'd confidently label 'terrorism' if they happened overseas or originated in a foreign country become the subject of thorny debate if they have a domestic origin and an otherwise identical fact pattern.

A decent write up of the legal issues here: https://www.aclu.org/other/how-usa-patriot-act-redefines-dom...

Your comment is strange and seems to misrepresent your source. Your linked article actually says that the current legal definition of (domestic) terrorism is quite broad, so the situation is the opposite - things we wouldn't label terrorism overseas - people protesting climate change, can be labeled terrorism here.

Quote: The definition of domestic terrorism is broad enough to encompass the activities of several prominent activist campaigns and organizations. Greenpeace, Operation Rescue, Vieques Island and WTO protesters and the Environmental Liberation Front have all recently engaged in activities that could subject them to being investigated as engaging in domestic terrorism.

Edit: you're literally correct that there isn't specific domestic terrorism statute but there are numerous terrorism task forces, antiterrorism programs and escalations of other charges based the category terrorist.

As yuo say, I'm literally correct. And the post is an answer to the question of 'why does this keep coming up in regard to every relevant news story?' Because there's no clear-cut statute, discussions don't terminate in clear answers, so everyone accuses their opponents of being terrorists but rejects the possibility of such a label being applied to themselves on legalistic grounds.

A simpler example of how this works: make a throwaway Twitter account or two, and start posting about how Trump, Biden, or both are committing treason. Die a little inside as you notice the subsequent discussions are mirror images of each other and contain about the same logical and rhetorical fallacies.

> Section 802 of the USA PATRIOT Act (Pub. L. No. 107-52) expanded the definition of terrorism to cover ""domestic,"" as opposed to international, terrorism.

That sounds to me like something we would call terrorism if it happened internationally will now also be called terrorism if it happens domestically.

Along with the obvious legal points made below, I also believe there are important social/cultural points. Which is to say, better (subconscious) threat modeling.

For many Americans, the word "terrorist" conjures an image of, e.g. a Muslim foreigner.

Data and experience suggests that the above is very not likely, and also, that domestic terrorism is likely more of an issue.

In other words, you get clarity, which reduces fear at best, and helps people more accurately threat model at worst.

Because this was a targeted attack with the intentional goal of disrupting a drag show [0].

There is a rising alt-right extremist movement that is attempting to demonize LGBTQ and drag as pedophiles and groomers.

Their methods are only getting more extreme [1].

They have very clear goals that are absolutely fall under the definition of terrorisms: They are attempting to terrorize a specific subset of civilian population into going back into the closet, under the threat of violence.

They are organized, and they are motivated. That's why it's important to call it terrorism - because there are networks of extremists that continue on their mission even if the specific individuals can be identified that commit individual crimes. There is a movement behind them to continue on the mission.

[0] https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1599464591196491777?cxt=...

[1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/epzv9a/libsoftiktok-trans-ch...

I’m pro drag show and anti extremism but this just seems so unlikely, doesn’t it? Didn’t they knock out the power for lots of churches and gun shops too? And according to news reports I’m seeing, they had the drag show anyway? I mean, people are crazy and do random things, so I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it just seems like it would be the dumbest way to try to make this dumb point.

> it just seems like it would be the dumbest way to try to make this dumb point.

I mean, you understand the types of people being discussed here, right? (that posted openly about this on fb, mind you).

I wouldn't try to rationalize the actions of these people too much.

Proud Boys confronted/harrassed/intimidated people at a drag show in a city not far east from there just recently and then some people (probably some the same people) put some effort into preventing this drag show from happening prior to this situation.

The sheriff of Moore County was asked about this in the press conference, and confirmed they spoke with the individual your link attributes as someone with knowledge of who is responsible, but says she made it up (i.e. "it turned out to be nothing").

https://twitter.com/PotrzebieSystem/status/15995193382805463...

Some of those that work forces...are the same that burn crosses.

Yes I recognize the Rage Against The Machine lyric.

Is your claim that the Moore County sheriff was ... in on it?

In a right wing domestic terrorism investigation in America in 2022, I would absolutely not trust any local small-town police department to investigate those ties effectively, no.

That is not an outlandish perspective, over and over, there are instances of the police not lifting a finger to protect trans or drag events while groups like Patriot Front or Proud Boys harass and intimidate them with shows of force/violence.

Not that it's true, but that it's suspicious enough to be worth investigating, yes, of course?

Is that not obvious? Did you pay attention AT ALL during Jan 6?

In any "not very large city," this should always be considered as a possibility.

Sure it's possible that's why, but that twitter thread is not conclusive. Some people loudly blame gays for hurricanes. That doesn't mean they have the agency to cause hurricanes.

Gee, maybe google the word or news story before writing 3 paragraphs about it? Yes, it was to shut down an 18+ drag show.

For the average folks with horrid (or biased) memories, do you really no remember post-911? We screamed "terrorists" over and over and how American interests would not be scared off by terror tactics.

Theyre suppressing expression. They have openly fascist intents. Theyre successfully shutting down other shows due to fears of violence.

In what world do you think this increasingly frequent type of targetted violence should not be talked about? Or just when its barely related to a social issue you have opinions about...?

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