However, the thought you had, and similar ones, are very much the intentional side-effect of the rules. The only way to win the game, as stated, is forcing your opponent to make the top engine move. Or, of course, correctly claim that your opponent made such a move (even though it wasn't forced). Or, having your opponent make the incorrect claim about your move.
So, it isn't necessarily "playing good chess". Though, I must say, I'm not qualified to have any good idea of what it would mean to be good at this game. It definitely helps to be good at chess, and have a good command of what are the correct engine moves. Especially since you lose if you incorrectly claim a position and opponent move was "the top engine line".
I suppose most would reduce this to leaving the opponent to only one legal move. In which case, the problem is is trivial. But, after move 2? You need to know most opening lines, and probably play intentionally bad in many situations.
Hm, this is cooler the more I think about it.
Imagine intentionally setting up material sacrifice with a resulting choice of multiple moves for the opponent to capitalize. If you can correctly evaluate the best computer move, you have a strong advantage. If it is not obvious, then the opponent might not dare to gamble the challenge.
Has Hikaru tried this in one of his streams? I'm certain he would have a blast.
The only thing about this that doesn't "spark joy" are the ambiguous practical implementations.
- Which engine? This matters a lot.
- How do you define the computational cut-off? CPU-minutes? Move depth? Etc. Not necessarily a simple problem.
- The rule "When multiple moves have the top score, they are all top moves". Needs a specific score evaluation delta for grouping "top moves".
All of these could rather simply be resolved if it isn't very important... might even add some uncertainty to it, for fun. Like, say: 1. Stockfish 15. 2. Allow the computer whatever resources it has available, 1 minute, and play some drum roll sample. 3. Pawn-evlauation of 0.05.
A further variant for fairness purposes: let each player bring their preferred chess engine, instead of arguing about the choice of only one; and have each player run both engines for mutual anti-cheating verification. Then either the two engines agree on the best move (likely case if they are both strong) or all moves that either engine considers better than the other engine's best move (at least 2, usually not too many) can be interdicted.
Human players are dealing with both human limitations and human limitations which really changes the game. So a grandmaster can for example benefit from playing a slightly weaker but less well known opening that they have recently studied in depth with the assumption that their opponent hasn’t done the same.
A minimally modified engine lookup wins here.
There's a whole bunch of openings that ensure it for white, this game is rigged even more than playing the best move, even if you do enforce a random opening.
Especially in this game, the humans will be trying to play badly.
Hikaru Nakamura is a top GM that does commentary streams — and frequently comments things like “but what do I know about chess?” when responding to AI suggestions. It’ll suggest a weird move that seems to leave a mess on the board while insisting that everything is great. And obviously if you actually tried to play against Stockfish from that position, it would crush you.
Looks like 400 ELO, but hey — what do we know about chess?
There's been times when the chess.com calls my move a mistake, and suggests something nonsense that leads to a guaranteed mate in 15, when I got a (non-guaranteed but real) mate in 5 from my move, because I know I'm playing against a human. The engine move is more guaranteed, but very illogical unless your brain can do the equivalent of the 30 turns of minmax.
Second, if you ever hang your queen two ways at once - one of them could be a less optimal take (-5 is not as good as -8)
Third, whoever is a move ahead in a race of taking pieces will be the first to run out of weak pieces to take. Their available move pool is shrinking faster. Not sure how it would play out, black would need to cater to it by removing defenders and hanging pieces of their own, etc.
That said, first move advantage does seem strong still due to how forcing a queen can be. An example would be 1.e4..e5 2.Qh5..d5 3.Qxf7#
It is an interesting theoretical question whether we can have Aleph Zero Human Chess where Human(Human(...(Chess))) is applied infinitely, approaching Aleph Zero trainings of AlphaZero, or we get a redundant variant after some application where further application of Human() no longer produces a new variant.
I think it’s possible that at least 1 position (and probably a lot more) will have more than 1 optimal solution. If the engine is not fully deterministic, then it’s possible instead of a normal cycle, there are a fixed set of strategies at each n that form a cycle, but no single sequence that repeats.
The other thing that would compound this is that no current chess engine solves the game fully. There would be even more positions that have multiple “optimal” solutions if the engine only looks ahead to bounded x.
> The other thing that would compound this is that no current chess engine solves the game fully. There would be even more positions that have multiple “optimal” solutions if the engine only looks ahead to bounded x.
I'm not sure this is an obstacle; we're explicitly excluding the computer's preferred move, rather than the necessarily optimal move, after all. You could easily play human chess with the engine from (e.g.) Battle Chess, which honestly is sort of an interesting idea in its own right.
For instance after 1.e3 e6 2.Qh5, White threatens Qxf7+ which would force black to play the top engine move. Then 2...g6 3.Qxg6 is one idea -- but there are two recaptures, fxg6 and hxg6, and only one of them can be the top engine move (hxg6, I'm guessing). So 3...fxg6 probably refutes this idea. But are you sure enough as white to try to claim a win if black goes hxg6?
And after say 1.e3 e6 2.Qh5 g6 3.Qxh7 (avoiding that line and going for material), not only does black not have to care about their rook (white can't take it, it would be the best move), black actually has 3...Qh4 winning -- he threatens 4...Qxf2+, white can't play 4.Qxh4 as that's the best engine move, and white's queen is threatened twice, so black will be able to take it -- provided he checked this line before the game to know which piece to take with.
Edit: it doesn't actually win, white has 4.Qf5 to defend f2... what a strange game.
Edit 2: once a piece is _en prise_ somewhere, the game can otherwise become somewhat normal as taking it would be the best move and so would moving it to a safe spot - so other moves can be played as usual. But would they be good?
My game quality is measured in how many times I say "fuck!" right after moving a piece. A very good game for me is about a two-fuck game.
Most of them it's more like four or five "oh my god I hope they don't see that thing I spotted the second I took my hand off" moments—and that's just the ones I notice before they're exploited. I'm sure I make tons of moves that anyone half-decent would call blunders but that simply go unnoticed by both players at the board.
I'm so very bad at spotting diagonal attacks, especially. Anyone who can open up their bishops then play for time will eventually see me put my queen in some dumbshit situation that lets them take it free or cheap in a single move, for instance, not even any multi-move planning required.
You basically want to "blunder" into giving your opponent long chains of captures while avoiding any positions that allow your opponent to hang a piece.
Therefor, such an engine can only hang in computation - being unable to produce a top move because if it were to make a suggestion then the actual best move changes to avoid it. Since the engine is unable to produce a move - there is no top engine move which makes every move legal.
A normal game of chess is played while the engine locks up on the sideline
While I enjoy the conversation ideas like these create, I'm often left wondering why Fischer random isn't more popular.
So you end up in this scenario where both players are taking one another's pieces while leaving their queens en prise the whole time. Is it a draw, or is there some clever way to break this loop?
Moreover if you hang your queen in more than one way, your opponent can still take it in whichever way the computer evaluates as worse. Which is often easy to guess. The weird part of this will come from the fact that accuracy of engines diverges very rapidly off of the critical path. Once you're down a queen, you're basically free to play however you like.
There are a lot of dynamics here.
We can argue if a forced move ends the game, or just allows it.
This would (more) move the game forwards in the basic historical rule-set.
- giz
My immediate first reaction was also that it would be interesting to have a variant that is the same except you are allowed to checkmate, except then I realized the recursive nature of how board positions are evaluated makes that problematic. For instance, if there's a mate in 2, the first move of the mate in two is now certainly the "best move". Creeping up on a checkmate without ever making the "best move" until the very last one might actually be harder than the win condition based on strangling the opponent described in the current rules.
It just seems like you're changing the objective of the game entirely to the point where it's only slightly related to chess.
It is an interesting variation on chess given the current state of tournament play, yet it isn't really a solution to the cheating problem since it is effectively a new game with a new end-state. But you are probably right about there needing to be some sort of threshold. While there the rules of the variation says that any move with equal scores is considered equivalent, I would imagine the players would need a very intimate knowledge of how the engine scores moves in certain scenarios.
So essentially this converts most mates in two into mates in one, but some become ties by repetition.
In fact, the opponent cannot play the best move to escape a mate, so a bunch of the games would become forced surrenders.
Edit: I didn't read the fine print. First moves are exempt.