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Comment by corobo | Hacker News Reader

Heh, decent timing. My last CBT session ended with me realising one of my issues may be a lasting effect of bullying.

Essentially I was trying to find out why I procrastinate, beyond "it's just the ADHD lol"

Boiled it down and down and down until we hit the core of the issue and realised I don't want to poke my head up and ship code/sites/ideas/etc because I believe I'll be bullied for it. In school doing anything that lifted you up (e.g. good grades) made you a target.

The realisation was that that will probably not to happen now. If I do something exceptional at 34 I probably wont be bullied by my peers (or heck, even if I actually was bullied for it.. who cares lol, my peers don't understand the market I work in)

I'd never reevaluated the internalised rule "If I excel, I will be bullied" until the other day.

On a slightly more positive spin the whole thing made me quite sensitive to deception. If someone is trying to deceive or manipulate me my subconscious might as well be flashing up a Metal Gear Solid exclaim noise for how obvious it seems.

MGS Exclaim for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbeEO58Hlfo

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I wonder if private schools are a way that rich kids can afford to be different but poor kids can't. See

https://sfstandard.com/business/inside-ftx-founder-sam-bankm...

Would rich kids be facing much more competition for elite spots from poor but smart kids if bullying wasn't part of the curriculum in the public schools? Given that only 10% of kids get to go to a school where dignity is assured, it could be that 90% of the smart kids are being kneecapped and don't reach their full potential. One more thing that makes a mockery of "meritocracy".

I was glad to see though that New Hampshire (where I grew up) finally passed a law making it possible to sue schools for bullying like the other 49 states.

https://newhampshirebulletin.com/2021/05/26/families-deserve...

I wonder also how many Enrons and Challenger Disasters we've had because many of what could have been our best people had it beat into them that self-assertion is not allowed for them.

I have a friend who was bullied so abusively and thoroughly at a private school that his family pulled him out and moved him into public school (which turned out to be a very good school system with very little bullying, fortunately for him).

Obviously that's just one data point, but I don't think the incentive structure at a private school is what you think it is. There's a lot of incentive to keep issues quiet, and a lot of pressure to fit a certain mold.

Private schools are an instance of opportunity hoarding, and "opportunity" should be understood in a number of ways. The opportunity to buy a certain level of freedom from bullying in favour of a "selective" crowd, for instance. Though I doubt there is less bullying in private schools, more that it manifests in different ways; if I had to hypothesize, I might suppose the bullying is of a different intensity though.

I was bullied intensely in the public schools. My parents were able to get me into a private school for just one year and the difference was night and day. For the first time in my life I was able to go to school and get respect. They sent me back to the public schools for the fourth grade and it was war all the time all over again.

Someone I know used to brag about the stunt he pulled to embarrass the private high school he went to and I shut him up pretty harshly about it because I had suffered so much in the public schools and how I would have appreciated the privilege that he got more than he did.

Of course he had his own problems including a struggle with alcoholism, getting beaten up by the cops, etc. and today he is a tenant and I am his landlord so it's not like I didn't catch some breaks.

I had the an opposite experience. I had a rich kid pull a knife to my throat in a fancy private school, the fanciest of my city, which is why my parents got me in. And he went by with a slap in the hand. I got kicked out of it because after several years I became confrontational to the teachers, which is what mattered to them, and went to a public school, where things went mostly fine. Kids could still be mean, but they were not untouchable because pedigree, so things were more reigned in, and kids were more inclusive and less worried about in/out group. Then came back to a different private school, and even if it didn’t get to the same awfulness level because I was more on the defensive, it was once again the same casual ostracism.

My private school years made it very clear to me that I wasn't supposed to excel because of my background. I was there to conform to the rigid boarding master rules, write maths with a fountain pen (excruciating for a left-hander), and generally know that I did not belong.

I wasn't bullied by the other students, but I witnessed an incredible amount of racism to other students that was largely whistled under the carpet. The "vote Tory" banners under the school entrance every election day, the sheer theft of the school administration when it came to school uniforms, stationary, and simple things like paper.

And then the elitism. They tell you that you're special to be there, next world leaders in politics or industry or what have you. Of course, they don't mean you - they mean the hand-selected elites that served as prefects or head boys and other from purer backgrounds with the same grades as yours.

Uni was a breath of fresh air, like finally stepping out of the shadow of someone else's ego and never realising it until that moment.

> Though I doubt there is less bullying in private schools

Why wouldn't there be? Wouldn't safe, comfortable kids have less to win and more to lose from aggression?

Kids don't bully because they're poor. They bully because the other kid is different (e.g. jocks vs geeks), they bully to gain peer points, and for many other reasons, that are orthogonal to public vs privaye, or poor vs rich kid.

As for taking to others bad home experiences, like mimicking an abusive parent, that can happen to rich as well as to poor kids...

Yes, of course bullying will happen in better off schools as well. I just think there will be less of it, since some bullying probably happens because it's more "reasonable" to be a bully when your circumstances are worse.

I don't know about the US, but bullying in "schools for rich kids" is legendary in the UK

George Orwell wrote about it. It's a theme that turns up time and time again in the lyrics of Pink Floyd.

Does anyone have experience with going to a "school within a school" for "gifted and talented" kids? I was trying to figure out why I don't remember any bullying from my middle school or high school, when it dawned on me that I might have been insulated from it by taking classes exclusively with gifted and talented kids —i.e., kids from stable/whole/educated households. I went to a high school where kids came from a mix of blue collar and lower-earning white collar families; does bullying still happen at public high schools in wealthy areas?

There's a lot of discussion here about how private school kids are insulated from bullying. Does anyone have first-hand experience or hard evidence of this? Based on books and movies about boarding school, it's hard to believe this.

That's me. Grew up in a very middle to perhaps lower-middle-class area and went to more-or-less middling schools. It definitely wasn't 'the mean streets' or anything but very blue collar. I'm certain there were kids living through very real problems at home and in their personal lives all around me. But I was blissfully unaware and disconnected from all that as I was wrapped in the bubble of band and honors/gifted classes and the associated type of kid. A pretty good childhood overall. One time, one 5-minute instance, I was actively, actually bullied, in a very minor and entirely inconsequential way by the football captain jock kind of kid. Took me by surprise, but rattled my cage enough that I still remember it. He went on to play in the NFL, had a short and pretty much unremarkable career as an athlete best I can tell, and now is a construction worker nearby and I saw a headline once that he got arrested for a DUI. I now live in a much nicer neighborhood in a bigger house than he does, and based on the blurb about the DUI, I drive a better car than he does/did. Point is, I can't imagine what it's like to actually be bullied. One tiny thing happened to me in an entirely impersonal and inconsequential way and here I am decades later googling the guy and feeling smug that I came out on top. I would have been crushed by any amount of real bullying.

A lot of the biggest bullies at my schools growing up were the richest kids. They might bully about different things, but they were huge bullies.

It seems like a lot of the HN discussion is focused on kids being bullied for being smart, which makes sense given the audience on here. However, other kids get bullied for lots of different reasons.

Chiming in with my anecdote. Took all honors classes throughout high school, so I pretty much never mixed with kids outside of that bubble. Was one of the few Asians in my high school in the small midwestern town, so I'm sure there was potential for bullying. But I wasn't bullied, and I credit some of that to the tiered class system.

This is one reason I'm up in arms about public school districts near me shutting down their gifted programs because they made certain not academically-inclined demographics feel bad about not being represented. So now, kids in my demographic get to feel bad about being bullied.

If I understand you correctly, shutting down gifted programs because they aren’t equitable doesn’t make sense. But if you wanted my advice, you might get further if you made that point without the racism.

The assertion that there are “not academically-inclined demographics” comes from those working to shut down gifted programs. Need we pull out the Smithsonian’s “whiteness” chart again?

I looked up what you’re talking about and the good news is it looks like that chart was pulled with an apology, so you should be able to rest easy now.

This is essentially how "honors" classes worked at my large public high school. If I weren't in the Anime- sorry, I mean, Japanese Culture- Club, I would literally have only seen the same 50ish kids all day out of a class of ~1000.

In freshman and sophomore year I decided that English classes bored me to tears, so I took non-honors English both years. There was zero overlap between that class and the kids I saw the rest of my day in honors classes. Then in junior year when I decided to do IB and was forced to take IB/AP English, suddenly boom yep exact same set of kids.

I'll admit, I enjoyed the experience. Admittedly partly because even half-assed work got me easy A's and glowing appreciation from my teachers (for actually putting in some effort and not being disruptive etc), but also getting to meet lots of different people was fun.

Also good god did I hate English class. So many insufferable books of what I still consider to be terribly little literary merit. I wish we'd been allowed to just read classical literature all year. For one of the book slots we were allowed to choose our own book, and I chose Plato's Republic, which I enjoyed thoroughly. It was the only book from prior to the 20th century that I got to read for class that year as well. At least it got better in senior year when we got to do Shakespeare again.

First I went to an average middle school an I remember many delinquents, but they had something like their own hierarchy independent from grades, so I guess nerds were no threat to their hierarchy, so they didn't care about nerds. Rather nobody cared about nerds to such extent that I didn't even know some animosity to nerds even exists. Standard grades were undefinable either, because ironically delinquents were below any standard, as a consequence nonstandard grades were undefinable either, so I guess separation based on grades was impossible as marginals were too numerous and visible. Then I went to an elite school for gifted kids (elite in terms of academic performance), but I didn't see anyone stereotypically rich there, and I'm not sure that a school for gifted kids is the same as a school for rich kids, I think they have very different goals. There was some kind of internment school for orphans nearby or something like that, so we got some flak from them, funnily I was once stopped by a girl and she tried to seduce me - a tomboy - I blushed, lol.

yeah, when I was trying to figure out 'What is the moment before the split second "my fingers just opened a new tab" effect, I realized so much of adhd is really consciously or subconsciously:

emotional flinching

distraction is just running away from a feeling. I don't actually care about the content of the new tab, i'm not addicted to the internet, blah blah

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BTW, The old book Focusing by Eugene Gendlin really helped me here-- it's on libgen or you can youtube the authors name to see some of his one on one sessions he did with people before he died. (You can do it yourself without a person tho, it's just having a kind listener helps you stick with it)

it's NOT about adhd or focusing on stuff lol, it's the name for his diy technique of 'figuring out what the feeling is' and unlocks all other therapy stuff that you may do after

Thanks for sharing 'distraction is just running away from a feeling.' It puts my experience into words succinctly without giving a root cause to why I might feel that feeling. Separately sometimes I can find a period of my life that seems to explain why I act the way I do but I'm also not confident in my memory to know if it was happening before hand or if I'm just associating two things that are only slightly related.

For example: I tend to be a very self deprecating individual because I like to laugh and hang out with people who say silly things but I also use it as a crutch to avoid accidentally offending people. I went to a very bad college and so was considered very good at academics while there and may have developed this then to fit in. I could also have developed it growing up because it was a way to laugh off mistakes. I could also just like the sense of humor. Heck even this statement I'm replying to that I like so much I'm certain I've heard it and resonated with it before but have just lost focus of it over time.

Anyway thanks again for sharing, it has helped refined my thinking.

Yeah the whole "ok but why do I respond like that?" is a massive focus now that I've realised there are all these internal rules I've been following since early teens and possibly even younger.

I'll absolutely give that a look into, thank you!

Also for nerds who have yet to consider it: CBT is like debugging code, except the code is your brain. I'd highly recommend looking into it where possible, especially if you are opposed or wary of the "and how does that make you feel?" style of therapy. Fascinating field, and quite helpful for me so far.

> Essentially I was trying to find out why I procrastinate, beyond "it's just the ADHD lol"

Along this vein, I think the internet (Reddit especially) has been spreading an idea that "ADHD explains everything" in recent years. Every year I feel like I see more and more people self-diagnose with ADHD and then stop looking further for any explanation for their psychological situation. In some cases, people seem to get worse after receiving the ADHD diagnosis and medication and then hyperfocusing on their distractions even harder. From my position I see a lot of people with anxiety issues, perfectionism problems, or even textbook depression becoming convinced that ADHD is the explanation for everything in their life. Not all ADHD patients, mind you, but largely the recent influx of people who start with self-diagnosis via internet memes and TikTok (mis)info about ADHD.

Yes, this is definitely a thing. I was one of those that self-diagnosed after seeing a long twitter thread about ADHD symptoms and every single tweet fitting to an absolute T.

It wasn't until I found a psychologist that had an opening 90 days(ish) later that I was able to get fully diagnosed that I was even mentally able to think about myself differently. That said, I had the resources to see a doctor, I'm in my 40s, so there was no family to tell me I was making things up, and the only pressure I felt was from myself to address the issue.

If I couldn't do that and was stuck in a world that acknowledged ADHD was a thing, felt I had it, and yet felt disempowered to do anything about it, I could see myself easily falling down the rabbit hole you describe.

Oh absolutely. I'm open to it being something else but as it currently stands two people trained in the field reckon it's ADHD so I'll go with it for now.

In any case being diagnosed with ADHD was just me finding a missing edge piece of my jigsaw, it helps to know what I'm working with but there's plenty still to do.

I actually started the CBT because of that, I realised ever since I got diagnosed I was leaning into ADHD as an excuse (welp that's just me, can't help it!) and doing less overall than when I didn't know, which I thought was lame. Like that's it, I get a diagnosis and then give up trying to live? Lol no.

Absolutely, and the problem is that amphetamines will make most people feel better regardless of their underlying issue, because that's what they do to the human brain. If you're depressed and you start taking Adderall you will feel happier and more energetic in a way that will convince you that you just had ADHD all along, when it's simply not true at all. You can insert so many other conditions in the place of "depression" in that sentence and it will be true. I know because I went through this whole cycle myself: adult ADHD diagnosis that seemingly explained so many things in my life -> prescription for low dose amphetamines that gave me that "wow is this how normal people feel" moment and validated that ADHD must have been my problem all along -> eventually hit a ceiling with medication effects and begin having terrible comedowns such that when I skipped them for a day I felt essentially lobotomized and incapable of getting out of bed.

Eventually I came to accept that my attention and motivation problems were a combination of screen/social media addiction, drinking too much, poor sleep caused by the two previous behaviors, poor diet, lack of exercise, and the stress of pandemic isolation and working from home. Addressing those issues was much more difficult than getting diagnosed with ADHD but in the long run it has completely changed my life for the better. I do think the ADHD thing was an important detour on my path to a healthier life, but I wonder how many people who are in the same boat will move beyond the "ADHD explains everything" stage and actually solve their real problems?

Another common thread among ADHD folk is perfectionism. I certainly suffer from it, and it’s extremely harmful to my career.

People end up confused why I’m not delivering when what I do deliver is excellent. They figure I don’t care or I’m checked out, something like that. I become less reliable because not delivering is imperfect, and I begin to give up not only on my objectives but myself as well.

I’ve had this lead to catastrophe twice, but I’m much better at identifying it and speaking about it now.

It’s debilitating at times. Knowing I can do better, but it’s not there yet. I could deliver something so much faster, but if it isn’t the best I can do, I’m ashamed of it. I feel like a complete hack.

Worse still is that when I nail it, do good work, get it out on time, etc… It’s still not good enough.

Fundamentally it’s because I’m not good enough. ADHD can lead to some extremely insidious and harmful self talk.

When it comes to worrying about being bullied, I have to ask: why do you think you’re able to be bullied? Are you worth making into a target? Why did you internalize that?

Personally I think being bullied is a significant part of why I feel I’m not good enough. That’s what I was told for years! Unfortunately, I was young and dumb, very impressionable, and it stuck. Oh well, keep at it and try to do better. You aren’t someone who deserves to be bullied and I’m just fine at what I do. We’ll get there eventually.

I strongly relate. I've noticed a lot of my bad habits or odd approaches to things are actually simple pain avoidance. Bad things happen to us and we unconsciously develop methods of avoiding or lessening those bad things. No different than a beaten dog flinching at a raised hand. For me, a lot of these behaviors have been easy to unlearn, but it took half a lifetime to notice them in the first place. And who knows what other subtle pain avoidance behaviors I engage in that I've yet to see or understand.

It' uplifting to hear that these things can be managed and unlearned. I hate knowing that I am my own biggest obstacle in certain respects.

"If I excel, I will be bullied" or "I need to bring things with me to parties/events because people don't value me for just being me"

What? Bringing beer/wine/snacks to parties is just polite.

There is a difference between choosing to do something like that because it is polite (or whatever other reason you find compelling) and feeling like you have to do it to be acceptable.

If there's a difference, it's only in degree.

Needing to bring something special to any sort of event, bringing too many things - just in case.

It's overcompensating for years of not feeling like you are welcome, and years of only being acknowledged when you had a desirable item or knowledge, otherwise you were a person non grata.

There are degrees.

Bringing a reasonably priced bottle of wine from a winery you like - nice and thoughtful. Bringing a bottle of Opus One - you're overcompensating.

"In order to be loved, I must be me, plus something else."

Like if you're hosting a party, it's easy to obsess about there being enough entertainment, food, booze, etc, far beyond what's actually needed.

At 34 I think you should feel free to do exceptional things. The reality is, probably no one will care.

They definitely won't care if I don't do it!

The main thing from my perspective is that I care if I don't do it, to the point of depression - hence the therapy :)

Can you elaborate on how the deception part is related to the bullying? I don't see the connection

Hazarding a guess: A frequent theme in bullying (at least in my experience) is falsely building up an expectation of positive outcome, then pulling out the rug, while blaming the victim for having unrealistic expectations, usually with rhetoric that they are inherently unworthy of positive outcomes, so by deceiving themselves they have only revealed their compounded lack of worth.

Experience that enough and I would expect one could develop quite advanced heuristics to protect oneself from deception.

You hit the nail on the head. Building up false hopes of acceptance in order to tear them down is especially characteristic of how girls bully other girls, but boys can certainly do it too.

Same way an abused dog will flinch when you raise your hand. You recognise the signs of bad things to come. Most flinches are wrong, but if you're always quick on the defensive you don't get hurt as often.

Someone looks shifty, or pauses at just the right moment in their sentence. Or scratches their nose while trying to get you to do something, or can't keep eye contact when they usually would. If they excessively look away for a moment during a disagreement get yourself ready to block the sucker punch. Or they accuse you out of the blue of doing something that's a complete 180 of your character -- ask them straight back if they're doing it themselves.

I can't really explain it too well I realise, having edited this comment like 20 times, as I've only just started looking into it myself.

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