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Comment by renewiltord | Hacker News Reader

An absolutely amazing city. And fascinating in that in this more collectivist society you have actual individualism whereas most American towns are heavily conformist and enforce this through law.

A curious glimpse into the fact that societies are not simply collectivist or individualist but so or not so across multiple axes.

One thing that I find interesting is how much laws influence these things and how a society moves from growth to preservation.

It seems that societies grow greatly and then settle into a period of stagnation, constantly talking about golden years while actively stifling them in the present - moribund European economies, the erstwhile innovation cities of America.

Curious. You can only create greatness while your populace is weak because once it is strong it seeks the status quo and slow decline - loss aversion trumping exploration.

Ultimately, in some way, cities and states suffer the Innovator's Dilemma too!

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Japanese people are significantly more individualist than Americans. You can have any weird hobby you want and they’ll ignore you. They produce more cultural exports per capita than the US does too.

The stereotypical collectivist society is a better description of Korea. A better way to explain Japan is it’s like England but Asian.

I find this implausible after just having visited Japan. The Japanese and Japanese culture are a lot of great things but I would never ever describe it as individualistic.

They’re not showing it to you. They keep it private but it’s still there. (that’s called “honne and tatemae”)

You’re welcome to look through used fashion/music stores in Tokyo if you want to see how good their soft power is.

Meanwhile the stereotypical suburban American thinks every nearby city is a hub of crime and won’t let their children walk anywhere until they’re 25. Vs: https://twitter.com/patio11/status/1596322167222063104

> They’re not showing it to you. They keep it private but it’s still there. (that’s called “honne and tatemae”)

There is in my opinion a direct conflict between everyone being highly individual and noone being willing to show it. What does individualism even mean if it isn't visible?

I'd never deny Japan has a lot of great culture and soft power however my definition of individualism contains a key component that an individual is willing to hold an alternate opinion and display it prominently and assertively to a crowd of others in their society. Basically in defiance of what they think and at least in some circumstances to piss them off.

This type of individualism is virtually none-existent in Japan from what I can see/saw there/know of the country and was told by people.

An individualism that isn't on public display is in my opinion not a particularly strong form of individualism. I'd agree that Japanese people probably have as much variation in thought etc as in the West however if we are looking at the overall culture, individualism is not a prominent strain of it.

”What does individualism even mean if it isn't visible?” This beautifully sums up east vs west.

How so?

You should read the replies to that tweet:

https://twitter.com/keccers/status/1596324554095595521

https://twitter.com/robinkunde/status/1596325433653559298

It is very common for American schools to have student art shows.

I don't know where you get your perception of the US from, but it sure isn't reality. Your other two "observations" are similarly divorced from the real world.

I read them. I think the point being missed there isn’t that it happens at all, but that US schools would be expecting that out of much older children. (My critique here would be, if you ask elementary schoolers to do a project, you might just get what their parents can do for them.)

In what sense does American culture punish/suppress/relegate people who have private hobbies that Japanese culture doesn't?

I think the axis here to look at is not individualism vs collectivism but empathy and willingness to cooperate.

> It seems that societies grow greatly and then settle into a period of stagnation, constantly talking about golden years while actively stifling them in the present - moribund European economies, the erstwhile innovation cities of America.

I feel like more often it's not "it was great but now it is worse" but the fact people forget the bad stuff and remember the good times.

Sure, buying a home is more expensive than ever but in general standards of living in most places are steadily growing and we're not getting poisoned by lead in petrol or have lead &asbestos in walls.

I guess you've heard it before but “Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

I don't know whether it's true or not... hard to prove there's causation and not just random cycles of improvement and decline due to luck or external factors - the higher you climb, the easier it is to fall.

I think it’s easier to say those things in hindsight. Obviously, if someone created good times, they must’ve been strong men. If the times are getting worse, it must be because whoever is in power is weak.

I’m more inclined to say that when times are harder, it becomes easier for fortunes to shift, and a lot of the regulations that would otherwise stifle growth are lifted (either because nobody cares, or because the law makes it so).

It does sound a bit like fascist nonsense. On the other hand I do have to admit to people often become stronger to when they need to in order to survive. Look at the Ukrainians. Still I'd rather they were living calm and peaceful lives maybe with a better economy instead of having to be brave and strong to survive.

And how exactly is that "fascist", can you explain? The word has no meaning now.

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