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Comment by wnoise | Hacker News Reader

I certainly think it is worth distinguishing sex and gender, and that using different words is the necessary first step. However I think that by-and-large people use "man" and "woman" to describe gender -- though not gender identity, but filling the role in society successfully. No one checks genitals, chromosomes, or gametes. They look and eyeball it, based somewhat on anatomical clues, but also a gestalt of dress, hairstyles, mannerisms, etc.

Typically I hear "male" and "female" used to describe sex, though it would be somewhat awkward to use them as nouns rather than adjectives.

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> No one checks genitals...

If someone advertises as, say, "a man seeking a woman" in the local paper I think they probably are going to checking genitals. A very key reason why we have genders is specifically to advertise what genitals someone has, because that is need-to-know information for pregnancy and then building up a family.

This brings up another good point. While someone absolutely 100% has the right to identify as whichever gender feels right to them, it is also 100% unacceptable to hide that when you are dating.

That is a good argument for not trying so hard to overload the same terms.

>it is also 100% unacceptable to hide that when you are dating.

If you need to know about someone's genitals, you can just ask them before you meet them. No-one is hiding information about their genitals by identifying as a particular gender. Don't make unwarranted assumptions and you won't have any problem. (That said, the false conception that trans people are tricksters lying in wait to ambush you with their unexpected genitals is a pretty big component of trans panic transphobia.)

If, as GP suggests, the underlying reason behind all this is pregnancy and families, then there are questions you have to ask anyway. Not every cis man or woman is fertile or wishes to have children.

> No-one is hiding information about their genitals by identifying as a particular gender. Don't make unwarranted assumptions and you won't have any problem. (That said, the false conception that trans people are tricksters lying in wait to ambush you with their unexpected genitals is a pretty big component of trans panic transphobia.)

It's not universal, but I've had conversations with quite a few trans people who considered it transphobic to care about genitals in dating.

That's just an anecdote, but as a more public example: consider that dating apps/websites let you select gender identity but don't have space for identifying physical sex characteristics, even though that is a primary selection criteria for many people. I consider this pretty ridiculous when a lot of these sites have a box for height/weight and even star sign.

> If you need to know about someone's genitals, you can just ask them before you meet them.

I think part of the problem is that you can't. There are lots of trans people that would be offended by such a question (and if they aren't, then why not just communicate it publicly in the first place!)

> the underlying reason behind all this is pregnancy and families, then there are questions you have to ask anyway. Not every cis man or woman is fertile or wishes to have children.

It's needn't be about pregnancy and families. It may simply be about attraction. For example, I'm attracted exclusively to biologically female people. I know from my past life experiences that this rule holds consistently, so if I'm looking for a sexual partner, then I don't want to waste my time making an emotional connection with someone who I then later find out isn't sexually compatible with me.

The bottom line is that you don't have to have sex with anyone if you don't want to have sex with them. Literally the worst thing that can happen here is that your date gets naked and and you realize that you're not into them. That can happen even if they have the genital phenotype you expected. I'm willing to bet that for 99% of people, most instances of this kind of disappointment occur with people who wield the expected and preferred kind of equipment.

I agree that the general prudishness of dating and dating apps (especially for straight dating) makes this all more difficult than it needs to be. But as far as trans people are concerned, all I really see here is a lot of unnecessary worrying about improbable hypotheticals that aren't even that bad if they actually happen.

Very few trans people are likely to do a 'surprise reveal' because they know all too well that this can have disastrously violent consequences in a heavily transphobic society.

I'm not worried about being forced into doing something I don't want to do. I'm worried about wasting my time. I'm worried about getting someone's hopes up, only to upset them when I have to have a very awkward conversation where I tell them I'm not interested. I'm worried about an angry reaction or being accused of being transphobic if I have to do that.

You claim that nobody is hiding information about their genitals. But while we can debate the semantics of "hiding", there are certainly lots of people who are not being open about that information. And I am arguing that the world would be a better place if everyone was just open about their genitals (and indeed their hormones).

It shouldn't need to be a big deal. There's nothing shameful about having genitals that don't match your gender identity (and that would not put me off dating someone).

Wasting your time and having awkward conversations is table stakes for dating, no? All of that would still be happening if you only ever interacted with cis people!

Are large numbers of cis people really finding that trans people are contributing substantially to their difficulty in finding a suitable partner? I see no evidence of it. This concern is almost always raised in rhetorically heated threads about trans identity, in the service of a particular argument – but almost never in threads about dating.

> If you need to know about someone's genitals, you can just ask them before you meet them.

Yeah, I'm totally gonna ask all my Tinder matches about their genitals. Not creepy at all.

I find this hard to relate to as a gay man, since us gay men happily exchange information about our penises (or other equipment) before meeting up. I think if it's important to you that your prospective partner has a penis or vagina, then it ought to be be possible to clarify this directly rather than making assumptions based on gender identity. If you find that it's not possible to do so in the current dating climate then, well, I'm sorry. But I don't think trans people are to blame for whatever is creating that barrier to honest communication. My guess is that there are probably a lot of other questions that you would like to be able to ask your Tinder matches but can't because of various societal hangups and tabus.

From the gay side of things, I've never had the experience of finding out that someone was trans only at the point where they took their clothes off. I find it difficult to believe that this is a common enough occurrence that it's actually causing people significant problems in their dating lives. If you don't want to ask, then assuming that women have vaginas is a pretty accurate heuristic. In a small number of cases it may not work out. Of course, dates don't work out for all kinds of reasons; unanticipated penises are likely to be the least of them.

Not everyone cares.

and there are plenty of ways to build a family outside of cis-het sex.

and who hides such an important part of their identity from their partner? This isn't som Nip/Tuck tv drama

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