Hacker News Reader

Comment by zwkrt | Hacker News Reader

It’s funny as a gay man to see all of these pictures because they really do read to me as gay with my modern lens. That isn’t because of some sort of special gaydar it’s just so uncommon to see straight men showing any type of vulnerability or affection with each other. I have a friend who’s been playing soccer with the same team for 10 years and he came to me saying he realize that he didn’t know anything about their personal lives.

I agree about pretty much every part of this article though. I feel bad for straight guys, how do y’all get by in life with such a lack of intimacy (physical and emotional) with your close friends?

View on HN

I'm a guy and have been focused on building tools to explore emotions for like 10 years. I think a lot of us men lack intimacy with close friends, especially emotional, because we lack it with ourselves.

The analogy that came to mind this morning is that of a swimming pool. If intimacy is the depth of water, many of us are afraid to go into the deep end. We want to feel the narrow slice of what we've learned is ok to feel, aka stay in the shallow end of the pool because it's safe. Maybe in the past we went into the deep end (often falling in love and then it ending) and we almost drowned, and therefore we may be terrified to go back there, even if we are a much better swimmer that we think we are.

Also, I don't think this applies just to men, as I was crafting this analogy today as a result of a woman who wants to seem to avoid going too deep with me or other people in her life right now, whereas I want the depth.

I think that’s an honorable goal. I like the swimming pool analogy. Some people and cultures are just so much more guarded when it comes to addressing their feelings with others. Even basic-level friend feelings of appreciation, compersion, and annoyance that are present in most all friend relationships. As a result connections can only go so deep and peoples’ friendships can feel empty and unfulfilling. The best part of having friends should be that you can be who you are sand say what you mean, but I see many people in my life for whom this is seemingly not possible. I called out the straights in my original post but it really crosses sexuality and gender, as you note!

I think I hear you. I studied intercultural communication in college and think I got so good at adapting to culture and have been asking myself more lately about how much would I like to change culture.

That's one thing I really appreciate about the article, almost saying let's try to (re)create culture to encourage friendship and affection and depth.

I'm a man. I don't even like showing tremendous physical intimacy with the women I go out with on dates. I hate it when people at my workplace or church touch me. My brain says "Get away from me, all of you".

Did you grow up without physical intimacy/closeness from your parents or in particular your father?

I did have plenty of physical intimacy from my parents and my father growing up. Lots of hugs, kisses from both parents etc. After reading some of the other comments and reflecting, I think it's that I feel like too many of the people in this world are trying to socially manipulate me through touch, when I wish to be away from them.

Of course, with a world like ours, the people successfully manipulating me are more likely the ones I can't touch.

I think that hard times is what really creates that sense of brotherhood. Unfortunately, in the modern western world, it has become really easy to avoid serious hardships once you get even to a modest level of income. I've wanted to do challenging things with acquaintances of mine, but they just don't pan out. I invite people to the gym, I invite them on long hikes, I ask them to do something challenging with me, but it's so easy go to just stay at home and order Doordash. Once you get older a lot of people have other responsibilities and making new best friend just drops down the lost of priorities. I've just gotten used to it. I try to find satisfaction in life through what I can directly do, and not what others can do for me (or with me).

Is that unfortunate? If you've managed to avoid serious hardships with a modest level of income, do you need that sense of brotherhood? Brotherhood is forged in hard times because it's necessary in hard times. It strikes me a bit like looking for an emergency prepper kit in a land that doesn't have serious natural disasters. It's as if you're saying the old Chinese curse to yourself "may you live in interesting times".

I couldn’t disagree more strongly. Not everything is War or Peace, and everyone is going to to struggle with something significant in life. Having deep, trusting bonds (brotherhood) is a source of security, even if the challenge is as boring and common as a passing illness.

I think hard times are a sufficient but not necessary condition. The reason that hard times create close relationships is because in a hard time you have to really be real with the people around you. You have to have mutual trust and mutual vulnerability.

These are things you can have even in good times. Ideally we would have them and not have hard times. But I think many people are not really interested in opening up in this way without an external catalyst.

Plenty of people go to the gym and go hiking. If you want friends who challenge themselves that way, maybe you should seek the ones who already are there.

Oh Charlie, I read this, and immediately I want to go hiking with you.

I'm a pretty affectionate (straight) dude, but I also came from a pretty affectionate family (German culture, parents were U.S. immigrants), and in particular between my father and I (I kiss him on the cheek goodbye for example). I hug everyone hello and goodbye, it feels nice. There's no fear of gayness, heck I have a couple gay friends I hug but they know my orientation so it's fine lol.

Looking at these photos, it does seem more close than I'd be comfortable with, especially the intertwined-leg photos, that seems a step beyond "mere" hand-holding lol. Or maybe it's not? Eye of the beholder I guess!

> it’s just so uncommon to see straight men showing any type of vulnerability or affection with each other.

In Angloamerican countries, maybe. What you call 'vulnerability and affection' is a requirement for social conduct in Mediterranean, especially Latin countries. You wont find people who behave distant like in the US, or gasp cold like in the Nordic countries. They would be either foreigners, who would be identified as such and their behavior of being cold would be considered normal because they are foreigners, or, if they look local enough, they would be thought to have psychological problems, even autistic. In Spain, there is even a proverb that goes like 'being cold like a Swede'.

And in some places, if you arent emotional and crying in important moments as a man or a woman, people could easily think that you are psychopath.

Not exaggerating or kidding. There are great differences in between cultures on the planet.

Agreed, I’m definitely coming at this as an American. Even more so as a Seattleite, a place known for its relative social coldness even by US standards.

I was told that it wasn't always this bad in the US either. A few decades ago, people were warmer and they socialized more. It looks like in the past few decades, social alienation and fear have set into the American society and started making people ever more distant from each other. Likely because of the stress and angst caused by economic insecurity, consumerism, the ensuing social and political conflicts etc etc.

I agree on all points. I think tech/phones have this effect as well. People become more like the machines they interact with. Seattle is probably the most tech-dominated city by ratio of residents in the industry in the US…

In Spain, there is even a proverb that goes like 'being cold like a Swede'.

TIL! As a (straight, late middle-age, male) Swedish person this is kind of hilarious! :)

Couldn't find a reference after some mild searching, but I did find another TIL [1]: "no te hagas el sueco" (don’t act like you're a Swede), which means "don't act like you don't understand". Interesting!

[1]: https://cafebabel.com/en/article/expressions-why-the-spanish...

In Italy it's fairly common for people of the same sex to greet each other with two kisses on the cheeks or hug each other. Holding hands has become kind of taboo but I don't really see the behavior of the men in those picture as inherently gay. I agree with the article that it's sad that this closeness has gone away, but it's kind of a self-inflicted problem. Men should learn not to be this homophobic and accept a bit of sane homoeroticism into their straight friendships.

I have 4 kids and a full time job. There are not enough hours in the day to even come close to doing 'well' at either of these responsibilities. Time to build and maintain friendships would be a luxury for me. I get by with the knowledge that if I didn't keep doing what I'm doing, the people I'm responsible for would all be homeless or worse.

I hug my friends (I’m fairly straight) but yeah the whole classically masculine vibe makes me pretty uncomfortable

This is pretty simple. Back when being a sexual deviant was heavily stigmatized, there was an overwhelming presumption that any public male-male affection was platonic. Thus these images wouldn't have raised any eyebrows in the time they were taken. Now that we live in an age where any perversion that doesn't involve children is acceptable, normal men are much less comfortable acting like, well, normal men. It's too bad. Even when I was younger, which wasn't all that long ago, it was normal for two boys to hold hands in friendship.

Even going to a pub with a friend and I get strange looks. 2 straight guys having some beers. I guess gayness ruined the rainbow for everybody else.

Let’s be clear homophobia (with a root in misogyny)“ruined the rainbow” for everybody else. The only funny looks you’re getting are from close minded people. And it’s only ruined for you (the hypothetical you, not making assumptions) because of your own shame in potentially being perceived as gay by others.

You’re right. I din’t want to be perceived as gay. What is wrong with that? I have so many gay people I know. My dentist, my next door neighbors, my ex boss, my ex classmate, some work colleagues. I get along with all of them. Live and let live. Let me enjoy being straight.

How exactly do a couple funny looks from strangers prevent you from enjoying being straight? If you were gay would you get mad at people for assuming you're straight? You can't control what people think of you, so it's hardly sensible to base your enjoyment of life on their opinions.

I enjoyed myself. I didn’t enjoy the looks, but it’s hard to explain.

A human is social, how we see ourselves is not really separable from how others see us. Read about the psychological concept of labeling: we tend to become who others think we are.

It's not about becoming mad at people around you thinking you're gay, but if you can actually fully ignore community's attitude towards you and not let it subtly change your behavior or weigh on you I'd say it's not typical.

Social pressures never turned anyone gay. Quite the opposite actually.

Of course it would not turn you gay. Or would it?

Let me rephrase this for you.

In long term we, being social, unconsciously tend to become what people expect of us (becoming typically less malleable as we age) or feel tension otherwise. In an unrelated news, we seek approval of others. Those are sadly different things. If people see you (straight) as gay, and they disapprove of gay, you got a problem on your hands.

Maybe you see how that could introduce undercurrents that hamper your enjoyment at the bar.

If you do this behaviour regularly, they'll think you're gay. Like many mentioned, the bar is very low when it comes to being perceived as gay these days. Great for gay folks cos they've gone through shit. Good for them. They should be able to be themselves.

But certain actions eventually would make people think a straight dude gay. Then the people you are interested in "romantically" won't be interested in you cos you're thought as gay. It's so hard to explain this. It's a bunch of things. If it is a one off, it is not an issue. But otherwise it is complicated.

This is why dudes are soooo expressive with their buddies in a closed environment they are comfortable with. Shit is completely different when you are outside of that.

One of the biggest BS I have come to realise is people saying ignore the world and the society. If you have nothing to lose, sure. Else YOU ARE LIVING IN A SOCIETY. And there are norms.

Just like people accepting gay people are new thing, the society learning to differentiate who is whom is a new thing as well. Just imagine a woman/man for instance going to a someone and saying - "you are not gay right?". That would be explosive. The first reply could be "what if I am?" in an angry tone. This is tricky cos everybody is learning.

It's just difficult. Now imagine the same happening in an asian country or somewhere where it is relatively new about this. You won't have the same luxury of being given a benefit of doubt even if you mean things in a good sense. Cos the LGBTQ+ community could be going through shit already. So they are by default defensive.

PS: Just sharing my perspective based on things I have experienced and seen. Not hate towards anything or anyone to be extra clear. :peace:

> Then the people you are interested in "romantically" won't be interested in you cos you're thought as gay.

And you can fix this in like 10 seconds via asking the person out on a date or casually mentioning that cute person of the opposite gender you saw yesterday that you wish you'd talked to.

> Just like people accepting gay people are new thing, the society learning to differentiate who is whom is a new thing as well. Just imagine a woman/man for instance going to a someone and saying - "you are not gay right?". That would be explosive. The first reply could be "what if I am?" in an angry tone. This is tricky cos everybody is learning.

Uh... I've had people ask me my sexual preference many times, sometimes in gay clubs. Never once seen it offend anyone, it's more like asking someone for their pronouns.

> And you can fix this in like 10 seconds via asking the person out on a date or casually mentioning that cute person of the opposite gender you saw yesterday that you wish you'd talked to.

Yes. Of course. But why do you expect people are directly conversing? Anyone around interested but presumes me as gay wouldn't even bother asking.

I don't think I can clearly explain this.

> Uh... I've had people ask me my sexual preference many times, sometimes in gay clubs. Never once seen it offend anyone, it's more like asking someone for their pronouns.

Thank you. From where I am, people have only relatively recently been open about this. Like I said, experiences vary.

> Anyone around interested but presumes me as gay wouldn't even bother asking.

Hot girl walks by. Make a point of checking her out. Believe me, there are a myriad of ways to express attraction to a certain type of person when in proximity to someone. Arguably the most direct being eye contact with someone you could be interested in.

Girl sees two men walking together holding hands. One makes eye contact + explicit gesture at her. She might think he's a creep, but probably won't think he's gay.

> Thank you. From where I am, people have only relatively recently been open about this. Like I said, experiences vary.

You're welcome. FWIW, I'm in France.

>Girl sees two men walking together holding hands. One makes eye contact + explicit gesture at her. She might think he's a creep, but probably won't think he's gay.

She certainly would, in the US.

> I din’t want to be perceived as gay

I'm pretty sure that unless they catch you making out with a dude, the jury will forever be out on whether you're gay or not, I think this is between you and your insecurity frankly

I've gotten more suspicious looks walking into a place alone than I have with 1 friend.

Your psychologizing and shaming would be more effective if the OP wasn't responding to a comment that literally says as a gay man these non-gay photos (of men doing less) read to him as gay.

Which begs the question: who knows more about gay stuff? Him or you?

Interesting username choice if true…

>with a root in misogyny

Nice thing for women to appropriate themselves of the suffering of gay men.

Is... is this happening to you in the UK? I've been to pubs plenty of times with just a male friend/acquaintance/relative/colleague/whatever and not only have I never received strange looks, I've also seen lots of other similar groups of pub goers.

And this is in lots of places big and small across the UK, not just in "metropolitan liberal elite" locations...

In the gay capital of Amsterdam

Reply on news.ycombinator.com