Friendship Forever
secretorum.life
secretorum.life
In March of 2020, we all started working remotely and I haven't seen any of them since. Even if I wanted to, almost all of them have moved to other cities, states, or countries. Most left the company we were at (including me). We have a Discord server where we all still talk and chat, but it's a cheap imitation of what we used to have.
Now, I work with a team of people who are completely scattered geographically. Maybe once every few months I will see one of them in person if they happen to be in the area. They feel like strictly co-workers- I don't think we've ever really laughed or just goofed around that much, and certainly aren't hanging out outside of work hours. I wouldn't be able to call one of them up in a time of crisis and ask for help.
I miss my friends, and the simple solution would be "go find new ones!" but, like this essay points out, that's not exactly easy and there's a "blind spot" about how hard it can be. There's also still a pandemic going on- I haven't caught COVID-19 yet and don't plan on it. Any sort of friendship that would involve physically being near other people on a regular basis is just asking for it. To me, getting sick is not worth having a friend, even though it is wrecking my mental health. I know that equation is different for other people.
Everyone has their own risk analysis. My analysis is that this is totally out of whack. Covid will be around longer than you’ll be alive. Make a friend it won’t kill you.
What really gets me though I know people with your level of risk aversion* who force their developing kids into lockdown. I think the cohort born ~2014-2018 are really gonna be an odd bunch.
* partial risk aversion. The risk of social isolation is not taken into account and weighed against.
I feel that as a society we have moved on from solving that problem and we now treat it as a cost of living, but it’s an enormous dead weight on society.
We all look around for every little thing we can do to reduce our risk of getting sick but we’re collectively unable to eat less. It’s like bandaging up someone who got hit by a train.
For most people who have weakened immune systems, they don’t have some rare disease. They’re just fat. That’s the state of the developed word right now.
I am taking the risk of social isolation into account- that is why I say "even though it is wrecking my mental health". It is something I am very aware of.
Friends are those relationships which I made during childhood. I still keep those relationships up. We have a much stronger bond through the stuff we have been through together.
I think friendship needs very strong loyality which is just not given in a normal work environment. Eg I’d never lie in court for my acquaintances, but I have certainly for my friends.
I am 25.
The reason is simple: I moved when I was 23, to a place where I didn't know anyone. I met people there, we did stuff together, often, because I was very available, because I didn't yet have other people to spend time with, and now we are friends.
If you already have an established group of friends, you are probably less available to make new ones. But if you find yourself in a situation where distance is created, that's when you are the most available to make new friends.
I'm only a decade older than you, but when I look back over that decade it feels like everything's changed. I've made new friends through hobbies, music, sports and yes, the workplace. I've lost touch with some people I thought were close friends. I've also been surprised by getting back in touch with people from school or university who I thought I might never hear from again.
Would I lie for those people in court (or vice versa)? I dunno. It's kind of a weird litmus test, because it depends on one's principles, how serious the charge is, and one's perspective on the legal system. It could happen, but I could only answer on a case by case basis. It's possible that I'd lie in court for a complete stranger if the circumstances were right. I struggle with absolutist views like "This is what friendship means and I will 100% behave in this way if that situation arises".
How would I define "friend" as opposed to "acquaintance"? Possibly as simple as: someone that you spend time with just for the enjoyment of it. If they're a work colleague, this means that you're likely to meet up socially, away from the office and work events (even if just online). Otherwise you're there because you have to be.
You have lied in court. Is this correct. How do we know you are telling us the truth.
But: It’s not hard to say „no, I have never seen him doing drugs“ or whatever.
Don’t expect everyone to say the truth just because game theory suggests to optimize for individual rather than mutual reward.
I moved half a world away for a masters and now have a job in another country. I feel this so much. I've been tempted to go back several times just because the lack of connection. It doesn't help I'm in a smaller country which makes it hard to break into friend groups when they've all known each other since secondary school (or longer) or Uni.
Discord really can't replace in-person discussion and experiences.
COVID is going to be around forever. I don't know why anyone is still letting it disrupt their lives.
It is a bet that I'm taking; I'm definitely curious to see 10 years down the road the difference in health between me (with a few years of social isolation) and those I know that have caught COVID multiple times. Usually they are catching it multiple times within the span of a few months/a year.
Building companies with friends is the best way I have found to bring these two sides of life together.
And what about those people who say don’t start a company with friends or family? F* them! Sure, friendships might suffer. But hey, so what. That’s life.
And at least you’re surrounded by friends who love you, and you love them. Instead of random assholes who just wanna progress their career.
Parent didnt say or even suggest that.
> when being gay was literally a criminal offense straight guys didn’t have to worry about holding hands
He's making an observation. Have you been to Turkey at around the same and have a different experience?
Holding hands between people of the same gender is now seen as a sign of a gay relationship (aka: couples holding friends). Therefore holding hands is no longer the sign of just friendship.
This is especially true in countries like Turkey where being gay is not really accepted.
Is that really so shocking to you? You can observe this in any Arab Muslim country today.
It doesn't help that most people don't consider it a problem. They see life as "men are supposed to be independent and if you get lonely you just date". If you try to insist there is another way, some amount of people will continuously push back as if it's an insult to their culture(it really isn't meant that way!). Which, okay I can almost understand, but then I go back to seeing constant posts about how lonely people say they are and I'm like "well that's what I was saying"
It's unfortunate.
I didn't find it odd at all. I actually thought, what a pity that in western societies this behavior can be seen as odd.
So it was a shock when I first befriended some Koreans in the US on student visas back in the 1980s.
That angl-saxon coldness was a learning experience for both parties. Being raised in the US by an emotionally distant Korean mother (Asperger’s?) I just thought that the US standard was normal.
I agree about pretty much every part of this article though. I feel bad for straight guys, how do y’all get by in life with such a lack of intimacy (physical and emotional) with your close friends?
It's not about becoming mad at people around you thinking you're gay, but if you can actually fully ignore community's attitude towards you and not let it subtly change your behavior or weigh on you I'd say it's not typical.
Let me rephrase this for you.
In long term we, being social, unconsciously tend to become what people expect of us (becoming typically less malleable as we age) or feel tension otherwise. In an unrelated news, we seek approval of others. Those are sadly different things. If people see you (straight) as gay, and they disapprove of gay, you got a problem on your hands.
Maybe you see how that could introduce undercurrents that hamper your enjoyment at the bar.
But certain actions eventually would make people think a straight dude gay. Then the people you are interested in "romantically" won't be interested in you cos you're thought as gay. It's so hard to explain this. It's a bunch of things. If it is a one off, it is not an issue. But otherwise it is complicated.
This is why dudes are soooo expressive with their buddies in a closed environment they are comfortable with. Shit is completely different when you are outside of that.
One of the biggest BS I have come to realise is people saying ignore the world and the society. If you have nothing to lose, sure. Else YOU ARE LIVING IN A SOCIETY. And there are norms.
Just like people accepting gay people are new thing, the society learning to differentiate who is whom is a new thing as well. Just imagine a woman/man for instance going to a someone and saying - "you are not gay right?". That would be explosive. The first reply could be "what if I am?" in an angry tone. This is tricky cos everybody is learning.
It's just difficult. Now imagine the same happening in an asian country or somewhere where it is relatively new about this. You won't have the same luxury of being given a benefit of doubt even if you mean things in a good sense. Cos the LGBTQ+ community could be going through shit already. So they are by default defensive.
PS: Just sharing my perspective based on things I have experienced and seen. Not hate towards anything or anyone to be extra clear. :peace:
And you can fix this in like 10 seconds via asking the person out on a date or casually mentioning that cute person of the opposite gender you saw yesterday that you wish you'd talked to.
> Just like people accepting gay people are new thing, the society learning to differentiate who is whom is a new thing as well. Just imagine a woman/man for instance going to a someone and saying - "you are not gay right?". That would be explosive. The first reply could be "what if I am?" in an angry tone. This is tricky cos everybody is learning.
Uh... I've had people ask me my sexual preference many times, sometimes in gay clubs. Never once seen it offend anyone, it's more like asking someone for their pronouns.
Yes. Of course. But why do you expect people are directly conversing? Anyone around interested but presumes me as gay wouldn't even bother asking.
I don't think I can clearly explain this.
> Uh... I've had people ask me my sexual preference many times, sometimes in gay clubs. Never once seen it offend anyone, it's more like asking someone for their pronouns.
Thank you. From where I am, people have only relatively recently been open about this. Like I said, experiences vary.
Hot girl walks by. Make a point of checking her out. Believe me, there are a myriad of ways to express attraction to a certain type of person when in proximity to someone. Arguably the most direct being eye contact with someone you could be interested in.
Girl sees two men walking together holding hands. One makes eye contact + explicit gesture at her. She might think he's a creep, but probably won't think he's gay.
> Thank you. From where I am, people have only relatively recently been open about this. Like I said, experiences vary.
You're welcome. FWIW, I'm in France.
She certainly would, in the US.
I'm pretty sure that unless they catch you making out with a dude, the jury will forever be out on whether you're gay or not, I think this is between you and your insecurity frankly
I've gotten more suspicious looks walking into a place alone than I have with 1 friend.
Which begs the question: who knows more about gay stuff? Him or you?
Nice thing for women to appropriate themselves of the suffering of gay men.
And this is in lots of places big and small across the UK, not just in "metropolitan liberal elite" locations...
These are things you can have even in good times. Ideally we would have them and not have hard times. But I think many people are not really interested in opening up in this way without an external catalyst.
In Angloamerican countries, maybe. What you call 'vulnerability and affection' is a requirement for social conduct in Mediterranean, especially Latin countries. You wont find people who behave distant like in the US, or gasp cold like in the Nordic countries. They would be either foreigners, who would be identified as such and their behavior of being cold would be considered normal because they are foreigners, or, if they look local enough, they would be thought to have psychological problems, even autistic. In Spain, there is even a proverb that goes like 'being cold like a Swede'.
And in some places, if you arent emotional and crying in important moments as a man or a woman, people could easily think that you are psychopath.
Not exaggerating or kidding. There are great differences in between cultures on the planet.
TIL! As a (straight, late middle-age, male) Swedish person this is kind of hilarious! :)
Couldn't find a reference after some mild searching, but I did find another TIL [1]: "no te hagas el sueco" (don’t act like you're a Swede), which means "don't act like you don't understand". Interesting!
[1]: https://cafebabel.com/en/article/expressions-why-the-spanish...
The analogy that came to mind this morning is that of a swimming pool. If intimacy is the depth of water, many of us are afraid to go into the deep end. We want to feel the narrow slice of what we've learned is ok to feel, aka stay in the shallow end of the pool because it's safe. Maybe in the past we went into the deep end (often falling in love and then it ending) and we almost drowned, and therefore we may be terrified to go back there, even if we are a much better swimmer that we think we are.
Also, I don't think this applies just to men, as I was crafting this analogy today as a result of a woman who wants to seem to avoid going too deep with me or other people in her life right now, whereas I want the depth.
That's one thing I really appreciate about the article, almost saying let's try to (re)create culture to encourage friendship and affection and depth.
Looking at these photos, it does seem more close than I'd be comfortable with, especially the intertwined-leg photos, that seems a step beyond "mere" hand-holding lol. Or maybe it's not? Eye of the beholder I guess!