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As proof, here is a blood test with 7,500 testosterone:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Fk9P55VCuld0iQOO88dNxk0eIel...

And then years later, with 150 (slightly above female):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uhDVTBtYARCDrtL5ZL-zVrWLNjX...

Did you ever have free testosterone or SHBG levels checked?

It's possible to have high total T but low levels of free T, which is the bioavailable stuff.

Ah yes, I think I did have one bloodwork with SHBG done.

I was on 250mg Test Enanthate a week then (no AI or other hormones, I think I may have been on GHRP/GHRP peptides like Ipamorelin + CJC 1295 but that's irrelevant):

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mgqXihtCe9KgJHwRrFw60LLQuv5...

Here's the results for the lazy. The first number is the value, the second set of numbers are the reference ranges:

  Testosterone, Serum 1465 HIGH 348-1197
  LH <0.2 LOW 1.7-8.6
  FSH <0.2 LOW 1.5-12.4
  Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 10.6 LOW 16.5-55.9

Exact opposite thing happened with me while being on estrogens. Right after couple of months I started my HRT I started to become extroverted. I was a very introverted kid that hated interacting with other people. After starting on estrogens I was kinda worried that I'd become more introverted over time. But nope. The exact opposite happened. I suddenly started liking the outside world more than before. I'd go to shopping with my friends, go to events, cons. stuff that I wouldn't even imagine doing before. I guess everyone responds to hormones differently.

Different people react to the same meds in vastly different ways. You’ll need more than N=1 to throw out notions of general effects of large amounts of steroids.

This is true, but if testosterone is what makes humans aggressive, wouldn't I have been ... aggressive, with 10 peoples worth in me, were that the case?

My point was to illustrate how reductionist that kind of thinking is.

It's also possible I have weird neurochemistry and am an outlier, so I didn't respond typically.

The response to Test isn’t linear. Many of the effects are threshold and proportion based. I think you would have got a stronger mental reaction if you also took aromatase inhibitors to keep the E2 down. But yeah as you mention you’re likely an outlier.

I don’t think anyone is claiming steroids makes everyone aggravated.

Plus there are different types of steroids with Tren being more strongly linked to aggression.

I took, at various points, Tren, Deca, Mast, Anavar, Primobolan, Equipoise, Trestolone, Superdrol, Dianabol, Anadrol, Winstrol, Epistane, Halotestin, Methyltrienolone, Methylstenbolone, and an alphabet soup of various other prohormones, peptides, as well as insulin and HGH.

I treated my body like a walking science lab during my teen years.

I took AI (if you would have looked at my bloodwork, you would have seen that at 7,500 ng/dL Test my E2 was crushed below the normal reference range, I actually had LOW estradiol) but it caused more issues than it was worth.

People on the internet largely don't know what they're talking about when it comes to anabolic steroids, I discovered that the hard way.

That’s quite an outlier. I didn’t read your tests but I did wonder why you let E2 get that high in your msg.

My working theory is the mechanism is similar to alcohol with a lowering of inhibition. The aggregation has to be in you from the start.

Some bodybuilders advocate not lowering e unless your boobs start to grow ;) better on the mood, joints, skin etc.

One of the things people generally aren't aware of is for most tissues that respond to testosterone the receptors are saturated. So your prostate at normal levels the receptors are saturated. Which means more testosterone does nothing at all.

The big exception to the above is muscles.

Interestingly body builders seem to think the culprit behind mood disturbances with steroid use is estrogen.

>This is true, but if testosterone is what makes humans aggressive, wouldn't I have been ... aggressive, with 10 peoples worth in me, were that the case?

Not necessarily. Maybe what's normal for 10 people is normal for you. Natural testosterone levels are known to vary by a huge amount

It’s sort of like a mathematical proof. If I say there are only 7 barker codes, all you need to do is find the 8th to prove me wrong.

If I say testosterone levels cause men to be more assertive, here is an example where that is not the case.

In almost all of these health discussion, assertions generally involve an implicit "on average". So, no, it's not like a mathematical proof, which requires a single counter-example to dismantle.

E.g., men are taller than women, is a typical statement that is understood "on average".

True! But this story is actually very common on TRT forums. A lot of guys end up on the steroid -> TRT pathway thinking they’re going to become a different person, only to discover that testosterone isn’t the singular driver of masculinity that we’ve been led to believe.

You’re exactly right that the mental effects of testosterone have been greatly exaggerated. People with genuine hypogonadism who receive TRT into normal levels will see some improvement, but it’s extremely common on TRT forums to see people who started TRT with the assumption that it would fix all of their various mental health quirks but then become disappointed when it doesn’t live up to the hype.

> I got lucky in that my response to TRT puts my testosterone up around 1,100ng/dL which is around twice what the average person has.

I wouldn’t characterize this as “lucky”. You’re on the wrong dose. Excess testosterone can cause its own set of mental health issues, particularly if the downstream hormones aren’t kept in check. The sustainable solution is to go back to a normal TRT range and keep your dose there.

Maybe a daft question but despite all this, would you recommend it? I used to be into weightlifting/CrossFit and was quite naturally strong but always a bit short of where I wanted to be, probably through lack of stability in my life meaning my routines were constantly disrupted. I was also not aware of just quite how rampant steroids were and how my desired physique (nothing massively over the top but probably something akin to a CrossFit athlete like Mat Fraser/Rich Froning or Marvel superhero physique) was actually out of reach without steroids unless you were willing to be very strict on diet and also put in at least 10 hours in the gym, probably for at least 2 to 3 years.

I’m now in early thirties, and things are slightly more stable but I’m also in the worst shape of my life. I was planning on getting back into reasonable shape over the next 3 to 6 months and then doing a SARM cycle or two to see if I could get to where I wanted to be. My plan was to then stop and attempt to maintain the gains I’d accumulated. From what I’ve read SARMs seem a safer way to go. I’d be doing it sensibly, aiming to take the smallest dose that worked and getting monthly blood tests if I can afford it to minimise the health risks.

As I’m now approaching midlife and my life hasn’t really turned out the way I’d planned (no wife, no kids, no skyrocketing career) I feel like I don’t really have all that much to lose. Wouldn’t mind getting the opinion of someone whose done this kind of thing though to see if they think it’s worth it even if you end up on TRT. I kind of feel like everyone ends up on TRT naturally anyway (or should be taking it if they’re over 45) so there’s not a hell of a lot of difference.

I would recommend medically prescribed TRT absolutely, it's been life-changing in terms of mood/depression and energy. Especially if you're getting older, at some point you're going to naturally wind up at levels so low you ought to have the option to have it anyways.

You'll have to inject yourself once a week, for the rest of your life. It sucks but the benefits are worth it (IMO). I look at it sort of like a multivitamin.

One word of caution about SARMs like LGD-4033 -- despite not being hormonal, they can still cause a degree of suppression. I'd get bloodwork done before & after to be sure, like you mention.

As an aside:

  > I was also not aware of just quite how rampant steroids were and how my desired physique (nothing massively over the top but probably something akin to a CrossFit athlete like Mat Fraser/Rich Froning or Marvel superhero physique) was actually out of reach without steroids unless you were willing to be very strict on diet and also put in at least 10 hours in the gym, probably for at least 2 to 3 years.

Yeah, steroids are much more common than folks think, and nearly everyone lies about using them (why would you admit to use, what do you have to gain?).

I'm hoping that eventually we de-stigmatize them so that this sort of thing stops happening. I too had these unrealistic goals based on a lie that I thought I could achieve naturally. It turns out my idol was juiced to the gills.

Yeah, I think they are slowly coming round to being destigmatised, I would say primarily because of the pros in several sports coming out and talking about them openly on YouTube, movie stars starting to open up, and then high profile people like Joe Rogan being open about his TRT usage. I think there is a wide spread acknowledgement that the majority of high profile men with jacked physiques are doing or have done something, particularly if they look very striated. I don’t think that wide spread awareness was there in the mid 00s or even the early 2010s.

Aside from it being more out in the open, the other main thing that is making me consider it is finding out about the scientific study that showed someone taking steroids doing absolutely no training puts on more muscle mass than someone natural doing very heavy training. It kind of just made me feel like training natural was pointless if the steroids gave such a massive advantage. Kind of like playing an FPS and everyone is using auto assist. It may not be right, but if everyone is doing it and it’s become the new accepted normal then you pretty much have to follow suit otherwise you’re just going to get left behind.

> Yeah, steroids are much more common than folks think, and nearly everyone lies about using them (why would you admit to use, what do you have to gain?).

I am sorry, but I don’t believe that to be true at all. In my environment, I have not encountered anyone who took steroids. Of course, it might have been hidden, but that would really surprise me. Perhaps you are speaking in the weightlifting/sports community?

I am in fifth decade of my life, and fortunately healthy and fit without any supplements, and I would be careful to take any in regard to the biochemical balance of my body.

In the UK, it is estimated up to 1 million are taking them which would be around 1 in 33 males. The article was from 2018, I'd bet the number has increased since. Obviously it depends on a multitude of factors but you most likely have an acquaintance who has tried them but keeps quiet due to the stigma associated.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/21/up-to-a-mill...

rcarr,

Thank you very much for bringing some numbers into this thread.

3% of the male population does not sound as much, but it is actually quite high, especially if it is true that 60+% of the 20-24y cohort is taking them [1]. That is 1.7+M young men. I am quite shocked. I suspect it is a generational phenomenon.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/281208/population-of-the...

> As I’m now approaching midlife and my life hasn’t really turned out the way I’d planned (no wife, no kids, no skyrocketing career) I feel like I don’t really have all that much to lose.

I know a group of older guys who had the same mentality when they were younger, but now generally regret their steroid use and subsequent destruction of their natural testosterone production.

You will find a lot of optimistic posts and articles from people who want to believe that HPTA axis suppression from steroids and/or exogenous testosterone is reversible, but it’s quite common for people to irreversibly damage their natural production despite doing all of the “right” things and cycle practices. If you go into this, do it with the assumption that it’s a one-way street that will result in a lifelong dependency on testosterone medications and potential adjunct medications that need to be adjusted from time to time.

The other thing people discover is that while TRT can get your testosterone levels back to the same number as before, it never quite feels the same as natural production did. Your hormone systems are more than singular chemicals and the various diurnal cycles and downstream metabolites have effects that aren’t accurately replicated with the medications. A lot of people will spend time trying to fine tune with aromatase inhibitors and so on, but it’s difficult to get it all right. It’s not a case of “more is better” when it comes to testosterone, either.

Finally, it’s interesting to see how much the older power lifters I know regret all of the damage done to their bodies. Steroids allow for higher weights, but that opens the door to bigger injuries and more wear and tear. The person who originally got me into lifting ultimately committed suicide after years of pain from injuries and reduced mobility from injuries sustained during his steroid use.

It’s easy to look at these stories and think “that won’t happen to me because I’ll do it the right way” but I’ve seen enough people go down the steroid use -> TRT -> regret sequence that I suggest you don’t approach this lightly. You actually have a lot to lose, and the potential gains (in your life, not just the gym) are likely not going to be as satisfying as you imagine them to be after the early effects of first-time use wear off.

AFAIK practically everyone with experience would recommend you start with a simple Test cycle to see how you like it.

As best I can tell a lot of the elite athletes are using peptide based meds which can give a huge amount of control over their physicality.

>I got lucky in that my response to TRT puts my testosterone up around 1,100ng/dL

Your "response" to TRT puts you at 1,100 ng/dL because you choose to inject enough testosterone to get it that high. TRT aims to restore men with under 300 ng/dL to a "normal" range of 500-600 ng/dL, and the dosage is adjusted accordingly to hit that target. If you're not adjusting the dosage and you're hitting 1,100ng/dL, it's not luck, it's because you want it at that level.

> I think people like to use it as an excuse/scapegoat for their behavior.

I think that steroids -> aggressiveness comes from documentaries, like those of Lyle Alzedo.

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyle_Alzado#Steroid_use_and_death

The indented paragraph from Alzedo is an early steroids user describing the effects it had on him.

So, is TRT a low dose steroid? or what's the difference?

It seems that both increase your testosterone levels, and it seems that is what help bodybuilders with their muscle mass