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Comment by rmc | Hacker News Reader

a damning indictment of the state of democracy in the USA

The problem is that many governments, also in Europe, still see the USA as a shining example which to follow. Or are somehow bribed/manipulated into adopting similar laws (see also ACTA).

So if the USA falls to this low, I have little hope for the rest of the western world.

Edit: I don't understand the downvotes; the ACTA is a secretly discussed copyright treaty about to be signed in many countries, including those in the EU. We are not even allowed to know what is in it, it could be exactly in line with SOPA.

Or as a shining example for EU politicians of what they can get away with. The the past decade we've lost much in terms of privacy in my part of the EU.

- We now have to carry ID papers whenever we leave the house. Fingerprints are recorded on our passport.

- Massive wiretaps are used by the police for "preventive measures" (on a larger scale than in the US).

- Trojans/exploits are used by law enforcement to gain access to computers.

- Encrypted hard drives are seen as suspicious (even though it's just a common sense precaution).

See also last year's rant by jacquesm (http://jacquesmattheij.com/Wholesale+Privacy+violations+in+t...).

It's very easy for politicians to chip away at our rights and it's very hard for us to get our privacy rights back once the precedent has been set.

Agreed. It all went so fast that it is easy to forget where we came from, and the freedoms we lost in the name of "protecting freedom". What was considered paranoid tinfoil-hat-talk only five years ago is becoming harsh reality today.

I would be willing to bet that parts of ACTA are in fact entirely in line with SOPA.

> The problem is that many governments, also in Europe, still see the USA as a shining example which to follow.

I've read this same argument all over the place here on HackerNews. I don't see it. And yet a lot of HNers seem to be pretty confident about this idea. What substantiates this?

Edit: to be sure, my question is concerned with policy making, not with nationalism or anti-nationalism toward any particular nation.

What become law in the USA soon becomes policy that the state department tries to get other countries to adopt through stick or carrot.

For example, Canada would of probably legalized Marijuanna by now, but the USA implied heavy stick-like consequences whenever the government brings it up, and as a result Canada backs down on the idea.

Another example are copyright and patent laws. The US makes a new law and surprise surprise, a few months later other governments in other countries start to see new laws proposed that look similar the US's laws.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/05/wikileaks-ca...

Prime Minster Stephen Harper "told the President last August that Canada would pass copyright legislation," the 2008 message notes. In fact, Harper wrote a personal letter to US Ambassador David Wilkins containing the pledge. "With respect to intellectual property rights, I can assure you that the Government of Canada takes the concerns you have raised in your letter very seriously," he promised the US in April of 2007.

This is the leader of Canada that did this. There are several nations that are much poorer that have politicians who would accept minimal bribes in order to start pushing for US-style laws.

I'm not sure that you mean by "substantiate", but especially right-wing and Christian parties here in the Netherlands tend to look to the US as an example and are uncompromisingly loyal to them. For example, privatizing utilities, support in their wars, sharing financial and passenger data for "anti-terrorism", forbidding liquids in airplanes (and installing body scanners), cracking down on downloading, keeping the ACTA secret, insisting on buying USA warplanes, and so on. It's the same for a few other EU countries.

It might go to far to assume they will emulate SOPA and NDAA immediately, but I wouldn't be surprised if they tried.

Depends. EU will never adopt any of the mad laws they have in the USA, e.g. abolishing nationalised health care, bringing in 'at will' employment, weakening anti-discrimination law.

In the area of copyright, EU isn't fully copying USA.

No, the EU members just have different mad laws that we in the USA will never have, like hate speech bans (which I have argued lead to the Jyllands-Posten riots because they give an appearance of unequal protection), bans criticizing religions, disagreeing with the scope of the holocaust, etc, and banning the advertising that water helps reduce the chance of dehydration.

Similarly Ireland has recently reinstituted blasphemy laws (given the demographics of Ireland, almost certainly to protect the Catholic church from certain forms of criticism).

The fact of the matter is, stupid laws exist everwhere. Nobody is immune. EU countries have generally done a somewhat better job in some areas but worse in others (allowing copyright of mere lists of facts for example).

"Similarly Ireland has recently reinstituted blasphemy laws"

That is not true.

Blasphemy has always been a crime since the formation of our country. It's in our constitution, which is embarrassingly old-fashioned and the new government has committed to reforming it. As such, removing the blasphemy law requires a referendum, which we have been promised along with about 3 others in 2012. It was a legal necessity to update the law in regard to blasphemy as it was in legal limbo since it was found to be unenforceable years ago. It has to be in law because it's in our constitution. It is still practically unenforceable due to its wording, something the Minsiter for Justice admitted to.

"given the demographics of Ireland, almost certainly to protect the Catholic church from certain forms of criticis"

Also not true. There are no mainstream groups supporting retaining the blasphemy law. Even church leaders, for what it's worth, have spoken out against it. The government at present also has the weakest relationship with the church, probably the weakest in the history of our state. Our Prime Minister has attacked the church and notably the Vatican mercilessly since taking office and the Minister for Education is attempting to take lots of schools out of church ownership.

It has to be in law because it's in our constitution

Yeah I've heard that too, and could well be true. But we're almost 20 years after the X Case, and it's not put into law when a woman can access an abortion. :P

That's not really a correct comparison. The criteria for legal abortions were not introduced to the constitution after the X case. You're thinking of the eighth amendment, a decade earlier. The thirteenth and fourteenth amendments which resulted from the X case were in relation to allowing women are free to travel abroad and get information while still in Ireland as a result.

Nah Ireland's blashpemy law is just a silly nonsense law that's never going to be enforced. The Irish government has floated ideas of literally confiscating lands/schools of the catholic church. They aren't protecting them all the way.

I also hope it will be less mad. USA govt has the tendency to be really extreme in some things (war on this, war on that), to the point of being neurotic, whereas European governments are generally more subtle and slower to jump on the bandwagon. But it is clearly going the wrong way.

Also I'd be careful with saying 'never'. Here in the Netherlands, for example, nationalized health care was weakened a long time ago by privatizing health insurance, more 'at will' employment is pushed as panacea for the employment problem by right-wing parties, and weakening anti-discrimination law (especially anti-Islam) is also on the agenda of a popular party.

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