Hacker News Reader

Comment by jonahx | Hacker News Reader

> There's a kind of 'or else...' vibe to it. As if some people think it's women's job to marry men to stop them being a menace to society.

I don't think anyone studying this seriously is making that argument or even trying to slyly imply it.

I think it breaks down like this:

We know "lots of single men" correlates with many indicators that are, broadly, "bad for society".

What is driving this change? What can we about it? The "what can we do about it?" is focused, again broadly, on "fixing men" or "fixing the incentives for men" or "fixing the opportunities for men."

No one is proposing, "Hey women, you better start marrying these unattractive layabouts or else society will collapse and you'll be living in dystopia...".

View on HN

I'm sure I've read it in reputable newspapers presented as an argument for keeping consenting polygamous relationships illegal - 'all the high status men will get multiple wives and low status men won't have wives and will be troublemakers'.

Yes, that is true, but even that argument does not imply that "women should be forced to marry men they don't like." To make that jump is to make a straw man of the argument. Whether or not that is factually true about polygamous society, I have no idea (EDIT: looks like it is, according to the other comments). I'm saying only that "being against legal polygamy" does not mean "being for forced marriages."

It is saying that you may not be able to marry the person that you do actually want to marry though, and the justification given by some people is that is so that you are incentivised instead marry someone else, someone you presumably did not really want to marry.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/case-ag...

> monogamy's main cultural evolutionary advantage over polygyny is the more egalitarian distribution of women, which reduces male competition and social problems.

It's this 'distribution of women' that seems dark to me. That can't be that much of a crazy opinion as people here seem to think?

> It's this 'distribution of women' that seems dark to me. That can't be that much of a crazy opinion as people here seem to think?

It's a very analytical, "cold" way to phrase it, yes, but you get this effect with many "human" problems that are studied scientifically, whether poverty, starvation, etc. Also note the same researchers can, and do, refer to the 'distribution of men' when discussing female mating preferences.

> incentivised instead marry someone else, someone you presumably did not really want to marry.

At a macro level, this is obviously true statistically. But do people experience it as such? You live in a non-polygamous society -- do you or the women you know feel like their spouses were forced on them? Because, to some degree, statistically, they were, as you correctly point out. But the mechanism is just via an accepted, background social norm... there are no arranged marriages, all marriages all voluntary, and everyone retains the option not to marry.

Yeah the theoretical situation is "I love X - can I marry him? No. Why not? Because he's already married and the other men will get violent if they don't also get a wife." and that sounds shitty. I don't know how many people experience that in reality.

But that is exactly the current system we have in the US and UK.

He can divorce and marry you, but that "frees up" his ex-wife to appease the roiling crowd of violent men. I'm being facetious, of course, because who thinks about it like that? No one. We just experience a cultural norm where people only marry one other person. And mostly no one complains.

And yet indirectly this norm has a macro statistical effect of keeping the peace.

> But that is exactly the current system we have in the US and UK.

Yeah I know - that's the situation I'm talking about. I know nobody seems to complain in public but I guess there are people out there is applies to. Maybe one day it'll change and people will be free to marry who they want.

> Maybe one day it'll change and people will be free to marry who they want.

People don't complain in private either. I've literally never heard it, even 2nd hand.

You're making it sound like a law against marrying someone of a difference race. It is nothing like that. Most Western women would be appalled at the idea of being someone's 3rd wife.

There is tiny subculture of poly-amorous people. Maybe some of them complain? But they can still be with who they want, just without the official seal.

You can actually look into statistics and see this is true. The 20 most violent African countries, for example, almost all have widespread polygamy.

Yeah I know it's true not questioning the fact... but is it women's job to solve it by marrying people they won't want to marry? Why should they do that to solve society's problems?

They're not romantic choices, the polygamy follows power distribution. The actual problem isn't that it's legal to have multiple wives, it's that resources are distributed so badly, that you end up with lots of poor men not having a stake in society. They're expected to work so that the rich and their wives can live leisurely, but it's all stick and no carrot. If the stick every breaks, you get lots of violence.

Worth noting that in countries with polygamy, it's not like women are afforded more choice than in their Western counterparts. Quite the contrary. The type of thing you see is a poor farmer marrying off his very young daughter as the 3rd wife of someone wealthy to provide for her. So in practice it's much closer to forced marriages, not unfettered choice for women.

Do you want to live in a world where no one makes sacrifices to solve anyone else's problem?

No. They don't really bear the brunt of the violence anyway, so why should they care?

Seems like there could be some correlation issues here.

> consenting polygamous relationships

Where are they illegal? Or are you talking about marriage?

Yes, he's talking about men legally having multiple wives.

Polygamy is illegal in the UK, US, and most places I believe?

Polygamy means multiple marriages at the same time.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com