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Comment by andsoitis | Hacker News Reader

what if they complain about it chronically? are you then justified to offer unsolicited advice, or do you have to just listen (i.e. be their outlet)?

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I think that's a very good question. I'll give an anecdote from group therapy.

There was one member of my group who was having a difficult time motivating himself to make a particular change he wanted to make. I had long since learned the dangers of "advice giving", so really just asked why he felt it was so hard to make that change. He definitely had a lot of backstory that could explain his underlying fear.

However, this pattern went on for about 9 months (him complaining about not being able to make this change, the rest of the group offering support). Finally, at one point I said "Bob, I really care about you, but to be honest, you've been complaining about your situation for months now and you aren't actually doing anything to change it. I understand where your fear comes from, but if you're not going to even try to do something different, I don't really want to hear about it anymore."

The next week he came in having made the first step toward his goal. Point being I had a much bigger motivating impact on him once I let him know how he was affecting my feelings (of course, after we had a lot of time to build up trust) than if I had said "just do x, y, z".

I think you've unintentionally explained why your advice-giving worked in that moment, too -- Bob knew you were coming from a place of good faith!

You weren't "just"-ing him -- you knew the intricacies of his situation, and it's a lot easier for someone to take advice to heart if they can trust that you actually know the context.

Most people don’t want you to solve their issues. They just want you to listen and understand them. If someone asks for advice, that’s another thing entirely. But I’ve learned over the years that just listening and appreciating what someone else is feeling is the most helpful thing you can do.

This is one of those personality differences that I find utterly fascinating. I think you're right that most people feel the way you say, but I feel the exact opposite! If I'm talking about a problem, it's because I haven't figured out how to solve it and would be happy for ideas. Otherwise why talk about it? You're certainly not interested in my problems, and it's by definition a problem for me, so it's not like I enjoy just talking about it for no reason.

It was definitely a learning curve realizing that most people don't feel how I do about this. Still baffles me to this day, but I've learned to put that aside and just shut up because I guess people want that.

I'm the same way. Not to over-generalize, but in my experience that feeling is a big

1) guy thing

2) engineering-type thing

3) type-A-personality thing

and god help you if you're all three!

All three of those groups are overrepresented on HN, too, so at least you're probably in good company :D

I just learned that I need to stifle my automatic "problem-solving mode" when it comes to personal interactions, and all of my conversations got way better. Glad I was at least able to learn pretty early in my life!

For real? Like if in the course of a conversation, somebody brings up that they've been struggling with depression and have a hard time getting up in the morning, you actually interpret that as a request for instructions they can follow, in order to become happy again?

I just find that a little hard to believe. If it's actually true, well, I dunno, I'm sorry for you?

I mean, that's a rather extreme example. It's hard to say how I'd react in that situation, I'd probably feel uncomfortable and mumble and try to get out of the conversation, lol.

Well, it's probably a desire for those things. The problem is that the solution doesn't exist, not that giving a valid solution would be bad.

Personally I like both. Listen first, listen completely and then offer suggestions. While some people will let you get a few lines in and then start blurting out useless suggestions without hearing the full situation.

It may be the most helpful thing for them, but listening to someone else's problems could be emotionally taxing to the person listening. Double so, if the listener has a feeling that he's there just to listen, and that the person talking about the problem just wants to offload their issue to the listener, and is not at all interested about what the listener have to say about the topic.

If you want someone to just listen, go get a psychologist. They are at least paid to listen to other people's problems, and have tools not to take stuff personally and not to feel bad about it. And they get paid in the end.

The parent didn't say you had to stick around. People default to fixing things and need to know that's the wrong thing to do.

In such situation, one should do what is the best for them. Not sticking around or running away may be unnatural and thus also emotionally taxing. Giving advice and trying to help, even if the person just wanted to vent, is not bad.

You [1] came to me with your problem. Now it's not only your problem, it's also my problem, since you shared it with me. I want that problem to go away, and will help you or give you advice how to deal with it. Then I will feel better. If I just listen to you, it may be the best thing for you, but for me it is the wrong thing to do, since I'm not made that way.

I you just want to vent so that you can feel better, don't make me feel worse because of that. Find someone else.

[1] "You" and "me" used for clarity, since "they" & "them" is confusing.

"just listen" isn't necessarily any easier than all the other "just <do the thing>" phrases.

This is a lesson I am continually still trying to put in practice. I had the initial ah-ha moment from White Men Can't Jump.

See. if I'm thirsty. I don't want a glass of water, I want you to sympathize. I want you to say, "Gloria, I too know what it feels like to be thirsty. I too have had a dry mouth." I want you to connect with me through sharing and understanding the concept of dry mouthedness.

> are you then justified to offer unsolicited advice, or do you have to just listen (i.e. be their outlet)?

You've exhibited what the book Crucial Conversations calls A Fool's Choice. There are other options. The recommended one would be to express to them the pain you have in always hearing it, and exploring with them their need to always talk to you about it.

They have a need, which is causing them to express it to you (perhaps in a suboptimal manner). You have your own needs, but are having trouble expressing your needs. It's a skill to learn, and it won't come easy, but it is learnable.

What about the complaint bothers you? Is it annoying the person never attempts to improve? Is it making you feel bad you can't help? Is it bringing your own mood down?

If you don't know the person, it is not your responsibility to help them with a chronic problem you don't understand. So just let that go. Feeling guilt because someone else hurts is not a good motivation for assisting them. You're going to cause more damage because helping them is about you, not them.

You also aren't obligated to be someone else's therapist or support. It is always appropriate so set boundaries and decide how much attention you're willing to give them. Doing something out of obligation means you're just tolerating a problem. Try to avoid "tolerating" things, try weighing consequences and choose your level of involvement instead. (Easier said than done.)

Basically, you have to think beyond "ugh" and figure out why you're bothered and decide how to act. In some circumstances (like work), you're just stuck with it and you'll have to carefully set boundaries.

Well, they're not obligated to complain to me about their problems and then get upset if I engage in the conversation.

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