Comment by AlecSchueler | Hacker News Reader

Comment by AlecSchueler | Hacker News Reader

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I Choose Elena and My Body Keeps Your Secrets by Lucia Osbourne Crowley.

Can highly recommend these to any man who is wanting to better understand issues of sexual assault against women, in terms of how normalised it is, the challenges women face in being believed by other men and the long term health effects that manifest themselves after such attacks and after hiding the truth.

Wanted to mention it here because I become more aware each passing week of the blindspots in the HN community regarding the struggles and perspectives of women.

If you want to get a bit out of the male dominated tech bubble and learn about some drastically different experiences from your own these are highly recommend.

Edit to differentiate the two books: The first is basically a memoir of the author in terms of her own experiences with assault and chronic illness, where the latter is a sort of collaged memoir from multiple people.

The latter is definitely the more powerful book and the breath of experience juxtaposed with the commonality of those experiences is very effective. If you're only going to read one I go for My Body Keeps Your Secrets. However there is enough that builds upon the first book, I Chose Elena, that I think it's definitely worth checking them out. The vulnerability shown by the author when she reflects on ICE in MBKYS is breath taking

There's enough understanding that things need to be changed, now the doing is needed.

> because I become more aware each passing week of the blindspots in the HN community regarding the struggles and perspectives of women

That's presumptuous and plain insulting. I've no evidence many guys here on HN are keeping women down in any way - that needs verifying (though it may be true). I've personally seen too few women in tech but that's because they don't enter it in comparable numbers. I don't know why.

> The first is basically a memoir of the author in terms of her own experiences with assault and chronic illness

aaand welcome to my childhood (though at least it was non-sexual assault, just the old-fashioned variety). And here's a thing: you don't want to know how it really feels and you won't be able to because you need that experience, and it's a thing nobody should ever feel. You can't get any idea of how deep the damage goes by reading or even talking about it.

Also, I don't want you to know because I don't want anyone to be dragged down by it.

I don't like this comment because it uses words like 'powerful' and 'breath taking' as if it's a positive experience to read about it. This is what people say when they don't have a clue. To experience it is filth, destruction and a lifetime of mental illness. That's the reality of it.

Edit: just my perspective. Perhaps I'm being unreasonable but I can't tell, sorry.

>That's presumptuous and plain insulting. I've no evidence many guys here on HN are keeping women down in any way - that needs verifying (though it may be true). I've personally seen too few women in tech but that's because they don't enter it in comparable numbers. I don't know why.

Not what the OP said, at all!

I understand you feel strongly about this and are speaking from a place of intense emotion. That is valid.

But I want to clarify some points.

Firstly, I made no suggestion that men in this community are "keeping women down." I simply said there are blindspots in our collective discourse owing to our demographics and hoped to recommend some books that could help in bridging gaps and engendering a more considered level of empathy.

> You can't get any idea of how deep the damage goes by reading or even talking about it.

No, of course someone without those experiences will never "really know." But learning about the experiences of others can certainly be helpful in growing an understanding of the extent of the issues at play.

> Also, I don't want you to know because I don't want anyone to be dragged down by it.

That's totally fine. You're experiences are yours and you can share or not share whatever you like. However the author of this book and the many women she interviewed for it do want to share their stories and this is also valid.

> I don't like this comment because it uses words like 'powerful' and 'breath taking' as if it's a positive experience to read about it.

You're adding something qualitative to my words that I never intended. These books had profound impacts on my outlook. I often had to stop reading because the contents were so painful, I had to stop to "catch my breath" so to speak. The impact the books had was a powerful one. That is not to say it was enjoyable or funny or light-hearted or anything like that. The threat of nuclear war is a "powerful deterrent" even though it is a profoundly horrible idea.

> This is what people say when they don't have a clue.

I don't want to get into playing top trumps of abuse but I can assure you that I absolutely speak from a place of experience and I have more "clue" about these issues than I would ever wish anyone to have. Again, I understand where you're coming from and that emotions run strong here, but I would ask you not to make assumptions about other people's trauma histories as it can be extremely hurtful and invalidating.

> To experience it is filth, destruction and a lifetime of mental illness. That's the reality of it.

This is what these books attempt to communicate through the thoughtful and raw disclosure of the experiences of many real women. They wanted their stories to be heard and I stand my the assertion that their circulation through groups such as the HN community has the potential to create a positive impact.

Again, I empathise with you and I hear what you're saying but I think some of your criticism is misplaced and that you could rethink your dismissal of my perspective as clueless. Thank you

I have never known physical or mental abuse, until I realized that some aspects of my upbringing were clearly strange. Reading about "real" abuse, made me feel exactly what you said: not wanting to get dragged down by it. It was a good thing actually, in a sad way I guess.

It’s okay if you don’t want to read about any form of assault. It sounds like what you experienced was traumatizing and it makes sense that you’d not only want to avoid it, but also why you’d be wary of anyone saying they can understand your lived experience through a book.

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