Hacker News Reader

Comment by SpicyLemonZest | Hacker News Reader

I really don't think there's a straight line from this kind of lone-wolf domestic terrorism to civil war. A civil war happens when people who aren't mentally unstable, normal people just like you and I, decide that suchandsuch political objective is so important that our fellow citizens have to be shot in order to achieve it. If that seems like a crazy idea to you (it certianly does to me!) then a civil war isn't yet on the table.

A period of severe unrest like we had in the 60s? That's definitely a possibility.

View on HN

It's not lone wolf terrorism though, it's an organized + well funded movement to end US democracy. They control a bit over 50% of the Republican party, and a growing percentage of the courts (including the supreme court).

Heck; Biden is would be considered right wing in most developing countries, and here's his take:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/20...

> Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans represent an extremism that threatens the very foundations of our republic.

Now, I want to be very clear — (applause) — very clear up front: Not every Republican, not even the majority of Republicans, are MAGA Republicans. Not every Republican embraces their extreme ideology.

I know because I’ve been able to work with these mainstream Republicans.

But there is no question that the Republican Party today is dominated, driven, and intimidated by Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans, and that is a threat to this country.

These are hard things.

But I’m an American President — not the President of red America or blue America, but of all America.

And I believe it is my duty — my duty to level with you, to tell the truth no matter how difficult, no matter how painful.

And here, in my view, is what is true: MAGA Republicans do not respect the Constitution. They do not believe in the rule of law. They do not recognize the will of the people.

They refuse to accept the results of a free election. And they’re working right now, as I speak, in state after state to give power to decide elections in America to partisans and cronies, empowering election deniers to undermine democracy itself.

(Sept 1, 2022)

> (including the supreme court)

This seems like paranoid thinking. The Supreme Court has shifted ideologically to the right, but I haven’t seen any evidence they are part of a conspiracy to end democracy.

Here's some evidence.

They ruled to allow state legislatures to override voters by changing state law to allow that:

https://news.yahoo.com/analysis-supreme-court-tilted-electio...

and an upcoming case to watch, where they're expected to further undermine laws:

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/30/1106866830/supreme-court-to-t...

> Here's some evidence.

These are opinion pieces.

> They ruled to allow state legislatures to override voters by changing state law to allow that

No they didn’t. Nothing in the pieces linked states this.

> and an upcoming case to watch, where they're expected to further undermine laws:

This isn’t a meaningful sentence.

OK, if you don't believe commentators or legal analysts, then read the actual supreme court rulings and the case matter for the upcoming case. They are public record.

"These are opinion pieces."

That refer to facts such as throwing out the voting rights act, and the decision on gerrymandering? Maybe try reading the opinion pieces??

Nobody has ‘thrown out’ the voting rights act. That’s an opinion. Part of it has not been upheld as constitutional.

The decision on gerrymandering is real.

But you seem to be thinking this is evidence of a conspiracy to end democracy rather than just normal bias. Even that piece admits that gerrymandering was invented by the democrats. This is just normal US politics at work.

"Nobody has ‘thrown out’ the voting rights act. That’s an opinion. Part of it has not been upheld as constitutional."

Semantics.

"The decision on gerrymandering is real."

Yes. It is.

"But you seem to be thinking this is evidence of a conspiracy to end democracy rather than just normal bias. Even that piece admits that gerrymandering was invented by the democrats. This is just normal US politics at work."

Do you not understand the difference between democratic and Democratic? Otherwise, what's the relevance of gerrymandering having been invented by Democrats. The court upholding it is anti democratic

> Do you not understand the difference between democratic and Democratic? Otherwise, what's the relevance of gerrymandering having been invented by Democrats.

That it's a normal part of US politics engaged in by all political parties.

> The court upholding it is anti democratic.

Is it? If it's a normal part of US politics, that is far from clear.

The point is that it's not evidence of a conspiracy to end democracy.

>That it's a normal part of US politics engaged in by all political parties.

Debatable. It's facially anti-democratic. That it's something that can be engaged in a partisan matter doesn't support your argument.

Hmm, why don't you wait until they let state legislatures throw out elections to be so sure?

You mean they haven’t actually done anything to undermine election results?

I meant exactly what I wrote. Feel free to let me know if there is something about it you don't understand.

They did already? There was a court case when the legislatures gave themselves the power to throw out elections. It went to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court ruling lets them throw out elections.

Prior attempts by states to do this in 2020 and 2000 failed in court, or led to the winning candidate (Gore) conceding, respectively. The 2020 standards that caused the election results to be upheld no longer apply in the states that changed their laws to take advantage of the new supreme court ruling.

What am I missing?

> They did already?

You seem fairly literate. Why would you ask this?

So then no they didn't.

Again, this sounds very different from a scenario where a civil war is on the table. Biden's concern with "MAGA Republicans" is that they might win political power locally and use it to subvert national election results, not that they might shoot him and seize power by force. (Scare quotes because I find the term unhelpful, not because I disagree that such a group exists.)

Read the whole speech:

> They promote authoritarian leaders, and they fan the flames of political violence that are a threat to our personal rights, to the pursuit of justice, to the rule of law, to the very soul of this country.

They look at the mob that stormed the United States Capitol on January 6th — brutally attacking law enforcement — not as insurrectionists who placed a dagger to the throat of our democracy, but they look at them as patriots.

And they see their MAGA failure to stop a peaceful transfer of power after the 2020 election as preparation for the 2022 and 2024 elections.

They tried everything last time to nullify the votes of 81 million people. This time, they’re determined to succeed in thwarting the will of the people.

That’s why respected conservatives, like Federal Circuit Court Judge Michael Luttig, has called Trump and the extreme MAGA Republicans, quote, a “clear and present danger” to our democracy.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com