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Comment by themitigating | Hacker News Reader

Socializing with others

A situation at home that is distracting

The need for changing location for mental delimination of work

Why are so many onsite advocates bringing socialising up? We are not there for their mental health or to fill in voids in their personal life. Have they considered that many of their socialising needs are not satisfied precisely because of office work that mandates people waste their time commuting or being far from their loved ones in the first place? It’s not that i dont sympathise, but seriously.

I don't think we should force people to come into offices, but I am a strong advocate for having offices. I cannot work at home. I need a minimum number of people around, preferably people with whom I am doing some work, to get anything done. If I'm at home by myself, even for a day, I sit in a depressed pit and do no work. I understand that many, many people do not feel this way, but the idea that people would want to work from home is utterly bananas to me.

> I need a minimum number of people around, preferably people with whom I am doing some work, to get anything done.

Doesn't seem like you need an office for that, though? You can invite your coworkers over to your home, go to a coffeeshop/bar, even the library. I went to the local library the other day and it was effectively vacant. I bet they would welcome your group with open arms to find some use for the space.

Work from home doesn’t mean work from home, it means work from anywhere.

All the WFH coworkers I've had were too spread out for that to be possible. Yes, "100% remote" means you can work from anywhere, but it also means your company can hire from anywhere.

I work for an office-optional company and my nearest coworker is 500 miles away. For what reason would companies constrain themselves to the local talent pool just so you can have some friends? And if they are willing to do that for you, we're right back to the venue not mattering.

> your company can hire from anywhere.

No need for nationalistic conspiracy theories. If your employer wants to replace you with an outsourced company or worker they will do so regardless of remote work policies, as it already happens.

That isn't what I meant at all. I meant within the same state or country, but too far away to meet in person.

My apologies. I see this statement often on some very odd forums, implying people will be outsourced and jobs sent abroad. I jumped to conclusions too early.

Here in europe my coworkers and i debated a few times wether we should all take a trip to spain and work from there for a week. A team building exercise which we can afford since we dont waste money commuting. Maybe you could explore something similar, or if not, go out with friends and live your life outside the 8 hours.

That’s nice for you, but you will not be dragging me into the office just because you need people staring over your shoulder to get any work done. I’m not your motivation coach unless you are paying me to be. Seems you want your coworkers to provide this service to you for free even if it hurts their productivity.

Incidentally there are virtual office zoom call services where you can get on a call and work with other people who have the same issue of not being able to work on their own.

Can't both models for work exist at the same time? At my job there's a 'work as much remote as you want', but for similar reasons mentioned above, I tend to work more at the office. Am I forcing others to join me? No. I simply assume that those that come to the office, enjoy being there. Whatever their reason might be, doesn't matter. The fact that you are referring to what to me seems like a basic human need as some kind of a service is frankly a bit absurd. John Doe wants to be a cashier because he enjoys seeing and talking with different people. Do you send him a bill after coming back from the grocery store?

Oh yeah I think it’s a basic human need, but not one I need to get at work. The workplace is a monetized environment. I provide a service and I get paid for it. If I’m not getting paid I’m not going to be there and will put my energy to much more meaningful endeavors. The emotional labor of providing camaraderie and mentorship in an on-site location is an add-on service from me for an extra fee.

People who want to be in an office should have it available or work for companies that can provide it. People like me can avoid it or only do it when the paycheck is right.

My family is my family, my friends are my friends and my coworkers are my coworkers.

The issue is that back to office people seem to wish to make that mandatory. John Doe can be a cashier all they want, people shop online anyway - because we have lives outside offices and we dont want to spend them wasted commuting. John Doe is a dying breed unfortunately.

Surely the answer is just to have some companies be remote, and some be office based. IMO the big flaw with what companies are trying to do right now is mix these.

I specifically said no one should be forced to come into the office, just not discount the desires of people who need office socialization.

Zoom absolutely does not count.

And indeed i think you should have the option. But i dont think either of us should be forced either way.

They never said it shouldn't be optional? OP wasn't asking why some people thing everyone should go back to the office. They were asking why some people like going to the office.

I believe both op and myself can manage this debate without a third party clarifying on each others behalf?

Many of us find the social life aspect of office work very important to mental health. At my last office job my commute was 90 seconds (literally), and I had an active and healthy social life outside of work. You've created an imagined person whose wants are easier to dismiss.

You may be an outlier but the vast majority of office workers live way farther than 90 seconds from their office. The mental health aspect is something i empathise with but not on my dime. By having to commute to work just so you can socialise with me i am basically paying money out of my pocket. Instead you should be free to be on site and i should be free to be remote and not hear you demand that you need my presence there to help your mental health. Thats selfish, with all due respect.

I struggle to meet people in general, and it's not because I'm spending a lot of time commuting. I appreciate being able to go to an office and socializing with coworkers.

In our remote team we have occasional virtual beer sessions, and better yet, we plan for bbqs every now and then. Also we sometimes play starcraft or just call each other. But we do this voluntarily as opposed to being forced by our peers. I absolutely dont mind making friends at work but voluntarily.

Clearly people who want to go to an office should join companies/teams that go to an office and people who don't should join companies/teams that don't.

Or there could be, ya know, a mix. Again, you are trying to impose either or, whereas those of us who work from home want to be accommodating. Perhaps because we, despite working just as hard, are a bit more laxed in how we view the world around us.

Ever tried meetups&co ? There is a life out of work

Some people want to enjoy their time at work as well.

There is life outside of work, but that doesn't mean work needs to be lifeless.

But why at our expense, both financially and mentally? The desire to work onsite, if you think about it, demands that others are in the office with you - since what you need is other people to make it enjoyable for you.

As i said, i dint mind people wanting or working on site. But that demand seems to either directly or indirectly mandate that others work onsite as well.

So why should earn less and live in worse conditions just so that you can chat with me in an office?

Im not demanding anything of others. I will seek out companies that fit my needs and you are free to do the same.

Yes but that's none of my business, I'm not here to be your social circle at work, I have other things to do

Thats fine, You don't have to apply to my workplace.

I will value positions that fit my needs, and you are free to do the same.

When hiring, I will select employees that meet the onsite requirements and fit the culture.

It's amazing how daft these guys are, socializing at work is a fundamental way of building better relationships and being able to deep dive into more complex and controversial issues. Humans operate off of trust and treating everyone as an anonymous worker bee is only a recipe for getting basic work done that streams down from management.

Following your logic there should be no ecommerce, since you cant step into a building and establish trust. Also there should be no companies distributed geographically since people cant “deep dive” into “controversial issues”. Such a dated concept and so not fit for modern day.

But the notion that people cant convey ideas while remote shows you either havent worked with experienced people or are inexperienced yourself.

I specifically mentioned socializing at work and working with complex and controversial issues, how does buying something online relate to that? I also never said that people can't convey ideas while remote, the post I replied to made one vague mention of on-site requirements, I made none. Just the implication that on-site leads to better building of trust.

I would never personally advocate for full on-site and I am actually a supporter of full remote work. I just don't pretend it's already perfect and that we can function by just purely conversing about work like we are JIRA ticket machines.

Also, geographically distributed companies will still tend to have the majority of people in a team or sub-team in one area but nothing is 100%. Different geographies usually have different responsibilities. Companies will also do all kinds of other methods of team building that is mostly social to compensate like flying everyone to a singe location occasionally or remote activities.

> treating everyone as an anonymous worker bee is only a recipe for getting basic work done that streams down from management.

I might blow your mind but there is a whole spectrum between being stuck with colleagues in an office 2000 hours a year and being an anonymous working bee

Yes, there is a spectrum to everything and my comment was not absolute about working hours either. I was not proposing we go to the office full time, simply that socialization at work is a core piece of building trust at work which is fundamental to deep collaborative efforts.

And the implication obviously is that socialization works better in person, but I didn't say it was exclusive to that. The person I responded to did say something about on-site requirements but it was vague.

Well you dont own the place so you might have to hire remote if your employer wishes to attract talented and productive people.

Sure, we sometimes do.

In my my experience it is a trade off. I find most full time remote employees not to be very productive. I would rather pay more to hire local in office.

In some instances it is so bad that I would rather pay more to hire a local novice and train to the role.

My guess is that your employer is mistaking remote work for cheap outsourcing. Probably budgeting for less and thats reflected in the quality of work. Otherwise i cant see how local junior devs can perform better than senior remote engineers. Either that or its your own conscious bias that impedes delivery.

Not software devs but engineers with pretty good offers for the industry ~200k.

The main challenges are onboarding and building an internal networking so that they can get the information they need.

Things you would ask a coworker in 5 minutes take months to figure out.

Some of this is obviously company specific, but 20 new hires in a room learn 20x as fast as one alone.

This changes things a bit as it seems like the issue is not remote workers and their skills. When i was a hiring manager i specifically asked new hires to get things up and running on their own, as a means to review our documentation. If they couldnt then we needed to improve. If you needed to “network” to get things done then that was a sign of bureaucracy. I kept teams small so that they could self service. Code was also split so it was manageable from a cognitive perspective not just technical.

But there is nuance to everything and varying levels of complexity, however people maintain kernels such as linux or operating systems such as freebsd or other massively complex and successful open or commercial products without ever meeting face to face.

Many years ago when i heard people talking about remote i simply couldnt get my head around it. I wanted buts in the seats and people in front of whiteboards. I just couldnt comprehend how entire companies operate without even having an office and they weren’t mom and pop size. Until it clicked. If a company can have offices spread across continents, let alone remote customers, then it surely can hire remote employees.

I would take everything you listed above as signs that things need to improve. Remote is not the issue here.

Also if you dump me in a room with 20 people just to get your code up an running i might think i am at a highschool not a proper workplace. Similarly if i need to jump through hoops to get things done then thats not a desirable place to work at regardless of pay or remote work.

I didnt mean to imply that the remote workers themselves are any inferior than local. I think you are right that it comes down to complexity and the degree to which projects and tasks can be compartmentalized.

I work in biotech and of my projects has probably 200 engineers and scientists working on interdependent tasks, and 10 years of accumulated knowledge. Requirement and knowledge management can only go so far, so networking becomes critical to find subject matter experts, or someone can point you to one when you need answers.

I think there is some threshold of work scale or interdependence where remote work breaks down. That is to say, any productivity benefits from remote work scale linearly and communication challenges scale exponentially. This of course assumes that there is some communication friction for remote relative to in person.

I see your point. Cross domain setups may struggle with remote work, as indeed devs needs to sometimes sit next to domain experts to better understand what they are aiming to achieve. Wondering if some of that can be mitigated by better story writing and specing or hybrid work, but either way i dont have a solution that makes sense as i have never been in your position. You did however show me a new perspective, as i assumed a tech company or the crud types that dont need that level of interdisciplinary communication, and i thank you for that.

Happy to provide my perspective. Of course I acknowledge that you are certainly right that some types of work can be fully remote or even benefit from it. After all, there's always been types of work with clear requirements that can be shopped out or contracted.

Anyone who claims that everything can be work from home or everything must be in office is missing the big picture.

Everyone's situation is unique and my socializing needs might not be met outside of the office for reasons that are difficult for me to fix.

I used to be same. Until i realised that remote work lets _me_ choose an environment where i fit in. After years wasted in london thinking about how cool it is and how much that city has to offer i realised it’s lonely as heck. Then i figured i would rather move on the country, get to know my neighbour, maybe bbq in a garden and have a small group if misfits like myself over for a beer every now and then. Heck i can even make my own starbucks at home in a nice office room that turns into a man cave at the switch of a button. I can do my hobby gardening, my own bread, maybe even learn how to do my own beer. I am not the hippie type but i found these to be better for my mental health. Those two hours not commuting work out at ten hours saved per week. Not to mention i can cook while i work (and plan the code, day or architecture in a quiet setting).

Doing all of this in a city jam packed by people rushing to offices would have been impossible. Making friends also since its a large city and there is no time to meet and maintain relationships anyway.

I think keeping an open mind and exploring the options remote work give you might help fix the issues that might impede socialising. The alternative is not even knowing you can do better, but maybe in the right setting - which you could explore by remote working.

There may be a gamut of people replying saying "I don't go to work to socialize" but work is definitely a place to network and find new colleagues and opportunities beyond. Trying to say that any work one does is done without any interaction with your coworkers apart from sparse Slack/Teams messages just isn't true

This sounds like an extrovert talking. I don’t network, find new colleagues, find opportunities beyond at work. As an introvert, all of that sounds absolutely anxiety ridden terrifying. Thankfully I am fully remote now so all of the interaction I have to do with coworkers is over slack.

Anxiety is not a component of being introverted.

Those are pretty much the big reasons!

Others may be:

* Access to specialist resources/equipment which is only available in the office,

* Costs of heating / cooling / etc. (more significant now, in Europe at least),

Heating a solo home isn't a big deal compared to the combined costs of heating a shared space and gas to commute. Employers cheaping out by paying gas but not paying your heating is a different story

I like some of those, maybe 10% of the time (because i'm reasonably anti-social), but man it has to be really good to put up with a commute.

Wasting 1-2 hours of my day, with the potential to have it become a 4 hour drive once every week or two.. just way too rough.

I honestly don't get how people put up with commutes. Like, honestly and really. It feels like i'm just destroying any chance i have for downtime during the weekdays. Throw in chores, and oof. Plus i don't have kids.. i can't imagine having kids on top of a commute.

I ride my bike to work. It's fantastic. Commute isn't a four letter word to me - I get exercise, time to think, I see my neighborhood and surroundings in a new way through all the seasons. I don't do it every day, sometimes I WFH or drive to work, but most of the time, 8 months out of the year, I ride my bike.

Someone is going to come along and say "BuT I dOn'T hAvE AnY bIkE pAtHs!" That might be true. Almost nobody has a bike path from their front door to their office. I sure don't. But if you stare at a map long enough, you'll find a way. It might mean you add a detour to ride a safer route. It might mean you have to drive half way. It might mean you take public transit half the way. I can't solutionize for everyone, but changing up your commute really changes things. It doesn't have to be such a miserable existence.

If I rode my bike to work, it would be 3 hours a day. Plus the 2 showers after each ride, packing extra clothes to change into, etc.

Not sure if you are in the US, but here what you are saying is absolutely not true for most people. Most of the country is so incredibly car centric that there’s absolutely no way you could bike 30 miles across a city. And then in most places the public transit is incredibly bad.

For example, I am a 40 minute, 30 mile drive from the city center. Most people in this area would consider that a reasonable commute. It would take 2 and a half hours to bike that distance in melting Florida heat and heavy aggressive traffic. It would take 2 hours by a succession of busses.

If I wanted to live a nice bikeable distance from the business center, I would pay dearly for it home price.

It didn’t have to be like this, but at this point we are so committed to suburban car-centric sprawl that there is now way back for most of the country and things like walkability, bike friendly and rapid public transit are going to remain luxury goods.

I'm in the US. I'm 10 miles from my work, in one of the eastern-most suburbs. I cross dozens of major stroads (arterials with HEAVY vehicle traffic) in my commute. The temps here in the summer are regularly 90+ degrees.

Solution? I got an e-bike. Again, I'm not saying everyone can bike the whole way. Take a bus for the first or latter half. It can be done if you actually want to make the change.

I’m happy to pick a job based on the commute. It’s not hard in the Bay Area to find something good and close. I’ve never had more than a 15 minute commute when living here.

I worked in Tacoma (Washington State) and the drive on I5 there could turn a 25 minute drive into a 4 hour slugfest. Worse yet, about once a week it would be 3 hour drive, almost without fail. It was awful.

I did end up with a 30 minute trip home today because of an accident blocking 3/5 lanes. But I guess that's not that bad of a worst-case scenario.

I rear ended someone last week near the end of a ~90 minute commute home (there was unusual traffic but it's still an hour minimum) and it really was the wake up call I needed to remind me why I was so opposed to working in my country's capital. At this point I think I'm ready to quit my developer job and take a 50% pay cut for any desk job with a reasonable commute (no developer jobs open in my country right now as far as I can tell).

> Socializing with others

Must be a cultural thing, but in my sphere 'home' is where a lot of socializing with others takes place.

Collaboration

Mentoring

Engineering a physical product. Maybe not the norm on this forum, but certainly the norm for many engineering jobs.

> Socializing with others

What a dystopic world we live when where "work" became the main, if not only, source of socialisation.

I use the hours I shaved off by not commuting for real socialisation

Socializing is an important part of building relationships. No developer is an island, with remote work I have much weaker relationships with my coworkers and we collaborate a decent amount less. It's much, much harder to figure out what other teams are working on/stuck on. Generally everyone is just more silo'd, and I don't think that's good for productivity, growth, or my mental health. In the office I'd end up learning new things constantly talking in the hall or at lunch. Now I rarely talk to coworkers about non work things which means we also end up talking about work less.

Not all commutes are long. Mine was about 30 minutes by train and I used that time to clear my head and prepare myself for work. On the way back I used it as a way to relax and switch off.

My parents met at work and I've made friends at previous position and remained friends with them. I also think that being in close proximity is important to me. For example people around the world travel home for the holidays instead of using a webcam. Since the cost and time of that travel is significant must there be a reason why it's important.

What a dystopic world we live in when "work" is not also a source of pleasurable socialization.

I spend far more hours at work than I have for socializing outside of work, with or without commutes.

The work socialization aspect has always made me laugh. I'd much rather socialize with people I don't work with, and especially not in a stuffy office

> The need for changing location for mental delimination of work

This is actually the biggest reason for me. Even after nearly 2 years of WFH I didn't find it nearly as easy to mentally separate from work. Leaving the office at 4pm does that much more effectively. I went back to working at the office as soon as it was possible.

You could also just take your laptop wherever you want in your neighborhood or simulate a commute with a 5 min walk around the block.

The travel to a new location is the key for me. Walking around the block and coming back to my apartment isn't going to cut it.

As for locations: - Coffee shops are noisy and staying there multiple hours is both inappropriate, you could have power issues, wifi issues related to speed.

- Being outside requires some internet device which may not be reliable or fast, power issues again but I guess you could just have a backpack with a USB power bank. The sun makes it difficult to see, you need to find a table, bugs, animals, other people, rain, heat, cold, etc

I've tried these things. My home setup is dual 27 inches with a physical keyboard. This improves my performance greatly, maybe I could get used to a laptop but that would require an adjustment period.

The library works too for a quiet study space you can be at for long hours without paying a dime

I can agree with your second two points, in some circumstances.

But... I don't go to work to socialise. I hate the idea that my social life is tied to my work. Since moving to work from home permanently, I've built social connections with people who actually live in my community which I far prefer.

You can socialize at work without having it tied to your social life.

I miss everyday banter and eating lunch with my co-workers.

> Socializing with others

Shameful.

Increasingly those are niche problems.

You can still socialize digitally with others if you work from home, or step out and get lunch or coffee at local businesses and be around people.

A home is no more distracting than an office.

Work is what happens when your laptop is open. Make a ritual of closing it to symbolize the end of your work day and you get the same effect.

Working from an office sucks and is for lower class jobs IMO. It is beneath a software engineer’s esteemed status.

"You can still socialize digitally with others if you work from home, or step out and get lunch or coffee at local businesses and be around people."

I don't think socializing digitally is a sufficient substitute. Being around people I don't know isn't socializing because I don't have a relationship with them."

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"A home is no more distracting than an office."

My apartment is quiet, I have two cats, I'm not near any loud roadway just a park, and my building has sound proofing so I never hear my neighbors.

Everyone has a different living situation but your comment implies it's the same for everyone.

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"Work is what happens when your laptop is open. Make a ritual of closing it to symbolize the end of your work day and you get the same effect."

This is not sufficient for me. I don't know why you think what works for you psychologically would work for others.

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"Working from an office sucks and is for lower class jobs IMO. It is beneath a software engineer’s esteemed status.

This is such a stupid comment that I'm just going to call you an asshole and take the flag.

A home where your may live with a good number of people and no workspace besides your bedroom can be very distracting. And assuming all software engineers are paid MAGMA wages and are higher class workers than others in their company is absolutely incorrect

Not every single worker needs work to socialize with others. Some people have places of worship and other things to socialize.

All this means is that working in an office should be optional. Forcing it on everyone just because some people use work to socialize is not intelligent.

As a company, I would think that I don’t want you socializing - you are here to work, not to chit chat. And I don’t want you to mentally deliminate work. I want you working from morning to night.

Edit: note that I’m an individual contributor and not in any sort of management position - but I imagine this is how management types think.

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