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Comment by spywaregorilla | Hacker News Reader

As someone who doesn't listen to much rap / hip hop, and can only name his cover (adaptation?) of Stronger, I do know who Kanye is. I don't know anything about his music. Mostly I just know of him because he's a very public asshole. Much like his wife.

I find it basically impossible to empathize with him. I just wouldn't ever be in that situation. "Rising against adversity" is not the story I'd be be using here so much as just a typical strongman bravado leading to an absolute disconnect from reality.

I would wager greatly that it's not that he's grown cynical to people saying he can't do something, but that he's become delusional from people telling him a genius. People who convince themselves that they're smart do this thing where they have an idea, and conclude that because they've come up with it and they're smart that it must be a well reasoned idea.

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Early Kanye West brought a lot of attention to social issues through his music and was one of the first hip-hop artists to publicly advocate for acceptance of gay folks in hip-hop culture at a time when gay slurs were very common. His first album was downright wholesome as far as hip-hop and there's a reason he was so beloved.

He's been on a long, slow, downward trajectory with his mental health since the death of his mother and unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anybody looking out for him anymore. It's really sad to watch at this point.

This is an interview from 2005 where Kanye defended gay people when it wasn't exactly popular. Trigger warning for gay slurs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sp45-dQvqPo

> one of the first hip-hop artists to publicly advocate for acceptance of gay folks in hip-hop culture

That's interesting - I've listened to his music since the beginning and would've assumed the opposite based on his reaction to the South Park Fish Sticks episode. Is there a specific song/album/statement he made that shows support for the LGBT community? As he's turned deeply religious (supports mega churches) + conservative in recent years I'd further expect him to not support LGBT groups.

> Is there a specific song/album/statement he made that shows support for the LGBT community?

The comment you replied to has a YouTube link to a 2005 interview where Kanye says on national TV to stop discriminating against gay people.

"You can still love your man and be manly dog" referring to his cousin https://youtu.be/JwAjANmjajc

I don't feel that's particularly incompatible with anything I said.

GP is simply offering some context since you said you don't know Kanye at all and have only encountered him recently. It was never intended to be incompatible.

Fair I guess. I'm not sure about the "recently" comment though. He's been making a ruckus for well over a decade now.

He’s an artist, he’s supposed to be messy.

But you also clearly have no idea who he is and what’s he’s stood for - the guy is single-handedly responsible for turning the tide on Gangster rap.

Here’s one way to put it:

No other man alive today is more responsible for changing negative to positive messages in popular music today.

He’s literally one of the most thoughtful and revolutionary artists alive. But of course you’d have to have listened to his albums from the start and followed along with interviews not just reading all the headlines on Reddit or Twitter.

And no, he hasn’t degraded. Ye, TLOP, Kids See Ghosts, Jesus is King are all massively successful unique pieces of art. It’s hard to compare him to anyone - MJ stayed within one genre, only really the Beatles maybe had as much diversity of novel styles.

If you only pay attention to the media you’d have your opinion. It’s so out of wack with reality though. But that’s what we have all across this entire forsaken thread - a bunch of totally naive people who aren’t even 1% familiar with his corpus of work or history calling him sick and worse.

> "Rising against adversity" is not the story I'd be be using here so much as just a typical strongman bravado leading to an absolute disconnect from reality.

It's not really a story of rising against adversity though. It's that people who have a lot of success doing something have trouble turning around and doing the opposite. There seems to be a human tendency to double down on what people think got them their success.

> Mostly I just know of him because he's a very public asshole. Much like his wife.

By "his wife" do you mean his ex-wife Kim Kardashian? If so, in what ways is she an asshole?

She's a no-talent clown who bought her way into the public view with nepotistic wealth. She heavily uses photoshop on her pictures, and then sells beauty products to insecure young women to profit off the insecurities her digital media team helped manufacture. Her brand is basically just 'stupid and rich' - not someone I'd ever want any of the young women I care about to idolize. Her fame is a shame of American society: her rise is emblematic of the shift, away from talent, to wealth being the primary factor in modern cultural prominence.

> She heavily uses photoshop on her pictures, and then sells beauty products to insecure young women to profit off the insecurities her digital media team helped manufacture.

This describes the whole "beauty" industry. I think this might be a case of "don't hate the player, hate the game". There are also plenty of other celebrities whose success amounts to appearing on some reality TV show and building an empire off of that. Kim Kardashian is not remarkable in this regard, but seems to get more hate than average.

don't hate the player, hate the game

I think it's perfectly sensible to hate the players that perpetuate the game. It's nothing more than a very weak version of the Nuremberg defense.

I think the majority of beauty industry 'personalities' are assholes. Some are finding success without manufacturing insecurity though, so I don't think it has to be table stakes.

So, nothing, basically. You just don't like her, which is fine, but this is a list of zeros.

I think it's weird that you don't think being a cancer on society is equivalent to 'being an asshole' but agree to disagree.

What is your point? Someone called her an asshole and then gave a reason. You don't like that reason but you say it's fine not to like her. Seems like a pointless conversation.

She's under investigation for a crypto scam,

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2022-183

she's also long been criticized for cultural appropriation,

https://time.com/6072750/kardashians-blackfishing-appropriat...

Oh no, not cultural appropriation! How absolutely dare she!

Crypto scams are bad. your second link can't be taken seriously by people capable of critical thinking and undermines your credibility.

She settled with the SEC: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/03/kim-kardashian-settles-sec-c...

On the flip she has been doing a lot of advocacy for prison reform and is apprenticing to become a lawyer in California, seemingly to that end.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/02/arts/television/kim-karda...

> and is apprenticing to become a lawyer in California

She's been working on that for nearly four years. And only just passed the 'baby bar' exam this year (The baby bar exam is the exam California gives -first year- law students. It requires a score of 70% to pass. Kardashian has taken four years, and four attempts, to pass the equivalent of the first year of law school).

Much as I hate to say it, those whose lives would be bettered by meaningful prison reform would probably get more out of her doing publicity and fundraising and using her celebrity status to that end, rather than becoming an attorney.

Her dad, of course, was famously a defence lawyer in California…

I agree. Kim has her faults but I don't recall a time when she has been an asshole to anyone.

I think this shows that the commenter is biased and doesn't have the full picture.

I certainly do not.

Though I was under the impression that her entire brand was showcased on a show where they went over the top being vain, petty, and brandishing the biggest ego's they could muster?

Pushing unrealistic beauty standards on to teens

I believe that OP meant that his ex-wife HAS a very public asshole.

>I would wager greatly that it's not that he's grown cynical to people saying he can't do something, but that he's become delusional from people telling him a genius.

I've been wary of defending Kanye online lately, but Kanye's influence isn't just "rap / hip hop". Kanye also broke into luxury/high-end fashion quite unexpectedly where he was given the same sort of push back. It started with him interning at Fendi (when he already was one of the largest entertainers on the planet) alongside a group of other eclectic individuals (the other most notable one, Virgil Abloh, who would go on to become creative director of Louis Vuitton).

He captured lightning twice and I can't imagine that developing into a personality into anything other than "everyone else is wrong".

That said, I don't think he's become delusional from people telling him he's a "genius", or from mental illness. Since 2020, I've seen scores of people all fall into the internet misinformation pipeline and I don't think Kanye is any different - he just has the largest platform. He's no more mentally ill than your uncle who believed COVID was a hoax. Everything he is saying is currently "mainstream" conservative ideology, his talking points are lifted directly from Candace Owens who is employed by The Daily Wire, which is run by the most famous conservative personality, Ben Shapiro, (maybe after Tucker Carlson).

>Kanye also broke into luxury/high-end fashion

the secret here is that the emperor has no clothes, and Kanye's fashion garbage is equally as garbage as the rest of the high end fashion culture. It's not that kanye's that good, it's that its all a crock of dogfood with high end price tags and people who won't say anything trying to fit in for access to the wealthy.

I own a pair of DH Gate "Feezys" purchased for $40. They're comfy, stylish, and surprisingly durable. 3 years of semi regular wear and they're just getting to the point where they look ragged and shitty. I'm strongly considering ordering a new pair of knockoffs simply because they're just a well designed casual athletic shoe. Comparable to something like Vans, except they don't fall apart in 5 months.

I personally wouldn't pay $300+ for them. A lot of his fashion design has a similar utilitarian theme to it, and I believe that the intent with his partnership with GAP was to more or less have an outlet to offer his designs at a more affordable price. Although I could be mistaken.

(I acknowledge the fact that the price of my shoes is because of either some fraudulent factory manager skimming product and/or bad labor practices and that's a bit shitty of me. But they're simple shoes, there is certainly a very high markup on the authentic versions too.)

>Kanye's fashion garbage is equally as garbage as the rest of the high end fashion culture.

This is not something I agree with, I believe there is something like called good taste (http://www.paulgraham.com/goodtaste.html), and just because I don't care to understand it (just like I don't care to understand expensive cars or expensive watches), that doesn't mean the entire field is garbage.

just because good taste exists doesn't mean it exists in the luxury fashion industry or any particular location or time. Good taste exists but not there.

It's overpriced gaslighting dogfood at best, a meat market to gain access to the stupidly wealthy at worst.

Just because you don't understand an entire art-form and the industry attached to it, that doesn't make it all "garbage".

Might as well go on to say that all modern art or modern cuisine is garbage, and sound just as ridiculous while doing so.

Spoiler alert: weird artsy high-fashion pieces you see on runways are not expected to be sold or worn in real life. Just like visual design of concept cars isn't what's expected to actually drive on the roads.

Doesn't make it good either though. A lot of "modern" art was artists claiming that traditional lenses and standards held too much authority and fuck off. We're going to do draw squares and they're going to be cool. Challenging "what does it mean to be good". Cool.

A lot of "post modern" art is this idea that it doesn't matter what you think, fuck you, I made this thing and it may even feel purposefully bad, and if I say it's good, it's a valid perspective. Which is really just kind of a post truth drain on society if you ask me; and is a really toxic thing when it's driven by tribalism and mass media to claim "this is good because a lot of people are saying it's good".

High end fashion is not very approachable to most people. A lot of it is just speaking back and forth within a very insular community. Most of it is absurd from the get go. Good art should be evocative of something.

FWIW, Kanye's fashion to me seems like it wants me to call it bad. Dreary. Unattractive. Poor, but.. in a way that seems like its asking for victimization rather than express something about poverty.

And for that I think it's actually bad.

Yup, whenever I hear that about fashion, for all the times I think that the GP's statement is accurate, there's also a Vetements story.

Their line, they want to champion a more "pragmatic" approach to fashion, and "down to earth nature", compared to the big fashion houses.

Demna Gvasalia and his friends all worked at LV, Balenciaga, Maison Margiela, etc.

Vetements in reality? "Down to earth" $1200 track pants, $800 t-shirts, $500 baseball caps, $1500 hoodies.

Given a choice between "trying to break down fashion to be more pragmatic, approachable and down to earth" and "we saw how much money the fashion houses made and we decided we wanted a bigger piece", I know which way I lean.

Edit: in a fit of irony, Balenciaga offered him the role of Creative Director and he went there.

For "every day" fashion, the game is given away by the cyclical nature of fashion trends. What's popular today is approximately what was popular 20 years ago. It's a game of maintaining constant demand for new stuff in an industry where almost all of the practical problems were solved a century ago.

High fashion is obviously a completely different beast. Something that has been pointed out to me recently is how "folk fashion" which focused on meticulous details like beading and cross-stitching was largely the pursuit of women, while modern "high fashion" that involves conceptual flourishes that are relatively simple to produce is more dominated by men. I'm not really sure what to make of this observation yet, but it is interesting.

The treatment of workers in both "every day" fashion and high fashion is deplorable as well and is hard to look past if you're trying to keep an open mind.

You can buy into it and sound ridiculous while doing so

I think Kanye actually is more mentally ill than our misguided uncles. I believe he has even spoken about his struggles with it during more lucid times.

I think you're significantly overstating his impact on the fashion world.

> I just wouldn't ever be in that situation

That seems to me to be impossible to say with certainty.

Short of something fundamentally changing my personality, I'm absolutely certain that I would never do the things he does.

>Short of something fundamentally changing my personality,

Something like... a mental illness?

Almost as if his mental health (or lack thereof) has fundamentally changed his personality.

His rise to fame is largely predicated on that personality and has been present for over a decade?

Maybe it is a result of mental health issues. But then the premise of his success feels very different.

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