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Comment by pjmlp | Hacker News Reader

JetBrains trying to fight back Visual Studio Code taking over their market share.

The main difference between VS Code and the various JetBrains IDEs is that for VS Code, you have to find and install the relevant plugins for your use case yourself, whereas the various JetBrains IDEs tend to work out of the box (while still supporting plugins). That's usually the difference between most free/open source solutions and commercial software: you can do mostly the same with the open source alternative, you just have to invest more effort. As far as I'm concerned, as long as my company is paying the JetBrains IDE license, why should I go to extra lengths to set up VS Code?

That is why one has the IT department configuring development images.

I remeber there was a blog post from JetBrains where they complain about VSCode taking over InteliJ market, by indirectly asserting they don't understand why VSCode adoption was rising.

Surprise surprise, a couple of months later Fleet was announced.

I'd say they still don't understand why VSCode adoption is rising.

There are two reasons:

- People don't know better (yes, they really don't)

- Language server allowed languages with abysmal tools to finally have some semblance of an IDE

None of us know the future, but in my opinion Fleet is a mistake:

- It tries to fight VSCode at VSCode's turf (an editor with primitive IDE functionality)

- while trying to be a testbed for new UI for JetBrains IDEs

- while trying to both serve the Language Server crowd and keep JetBrain's vastly superior language tools

- while diluting JetBrains' offer of development tools

People don't know better (yes, they really don't)

Or maybe VS Code is just really good? I was skeptical for a long time as well. I am a longtime Emacs and JetBrains IDE user (starting with IntelliJ in 2013). A while back I gave VS Code a try again. I primarily used CLion for Rust and PyCharm. And I found that the Rust/Python is at least as good as in CLion/PyCharm (with the exception of Cython). And thanks to VS Code's rich plugin ecosystem, I have a Magit implementation that is almost as good as Emacs Magit, the same with VSpaceCode to get Spacemacs/Doom-like spacebar-driven workflows.

My JetBrains All Products Pack is up for renewal later this month, but I am seriously considering to let it lapse...

> And I found that the Rust/Python is at least as good as in CLion/PyCharm

I think Rust support is comparable (probably because they both use rust-analyzer). I've found the opposite for Python. PyCharm is WAY smarter than VS Code.

I don’t think CLion uses rust-analyzer. IIRC it uses their own thing which was developed by the same person who later made rust-analyzer.

Edit: more info:

https://plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/8182-rust/docs/rust-faq...

same, I've used both -- gave vscode a good year of trying to do python with it and Pycharm is doing more to understand my code. I'm not even using the integrated database junk either and it still does more.

That said there is one part where I still have to turn to VSCode and that's when I want live breakpoints inside of a Tilt powered Kubernetes pod. I like the way that those settings are persisted so that other dev's can also use the debug functionality with literally one click. If pycharm just made remote debugging easy I'd never have to open VSCode for python development (but I'd probably still open it for something else like a quick editor of a file -- it's like my new vim). VSCode shines for supporting odd-ball languages and libraries sooner than JetBrains - and opens relatively quickly, sublime is much faster and I still use it for large files -- I just wish it was a little less involved to extend like VSCode.

> Or maybe VS Code is just really good?

It's okay. And its ecosystem is also anywhere from okay to abysmal.

For languages (like Rust) that never really had any tools to begin with it seems like an amazing IDE/editor. In comparison to what IDEA offers for more established languages (anything from language support to framework support) it's ... just okay :)

I also think vscode is really good enough for development and has a healthy plugin interface. I only miss my vim navigation when working in it, nothing beats vscode remote mode and it's free.

> Language server allowed languages with abysmal tools to finally have some semblance of an IDE

Oh yeah, this is absolutely true. If VS Code is the de facto standard for your language, it's probably a decent experience. I use it for 6502 assembly.

But I see people talking up VS Code over Visual Studio for C++ or C#, which I find completely baffling.

It's not that they don't know better. I'd say it's all down to marketing and sheer numbers in developer mindshare.

This is from my experience: Just listen to most junior developers. They regurgitate and repeat marketing fluff spoken to them by twitter evangelists or twitch developer streams. I just spent the afternoon listening to it and it was sickening. You can't reason or get through to them. Compromise and nuance just feeds their pompous attitude.

/rant

Remote (Container|WSL|SSH) extension is a game changer. IntelliJ Remote Development is similar feature but VSCode is superior.

> That is why one has the IT department configuring development images.

Sounds like a nightmare! What do IT know about development to be picking tools?

A lot, in many Fortune 500 where software isn't the main product, you get a machine (VM based or real one) customized for your workflows, with the set of software that is white listed for software development in the company.

Anything beyond the standard development image requires opening a request to IT and procurement, with the respective OK from management.

Congratulations. You just identified one of the reasons so many dread working at such organisations and why software engineering is becoming assembly line work. Indeed what does an it person know about tooling and why do engineers need to ask for “permission” from managers by opening a “ticket”? Neither an it person nor a manger have a clue about what an engineer needs.

That's the part that cracks me up.

Developers require low-wage workers to prevent developers from doing the wrong thing. It's stupid.

I'm ok with you revoking Bob's admin privileges if Bob keeps installing malware, but don't revoke my ability to install Python because of it.

Sounds like an even worse nightmare!

Every developer has their own way of being productive which involves different tools & software. Forcing everyone to use one standardized environment sounds horrible.

Any developer that is willing to face the legal consequences of installing software that causes business damages, can go ahead and work around the system.

Sounds like there could be a middle path. Instead one fixed dev image, there can be base image + inventory of other software, where free ones anyone can install. Paid ones need approval and/or decision who will pay for it. But IT department is surely not one I imagine that can create decent inventory. So there needs be a catalog for such things which companies can purchase or subscribe.

And when your company starts doing that to developers it is time to dust off your resume and start looking for something better. I get it that these companies have real issues and their managers are multiple times smarter than me but I refuse to be put into a position where I cannot use the tools that I need to be productive.

I get it - have been there. Work with project/team X, and... with tools I know, I'm X productive.

"We need to switch to tool Y".

There's usually a host of reasons I may not want to move to tool Y, but in most cases, it's because I don't want to have to learn yet another tool just to do what I was doing. Why? Cognitive overload... but also for some period of time I'm going to be much less productive. I don't want to be judged on that. you are saying I have to use Y... I'm going to be slower. Every estimate will be 20% more than what it was for the next Z months. I've got 10 years of muscle memory to undo. Is it worth it?

In most cases, really not. BUT... if someone mandated that, AND also acknowledged up front that the delivery expectations will be reduced for some longer period of time... perhaps it's OK.

On the JB topic, IntelliJ was one 'heavy' tool I resisted for a long time. "I'm faster in these other tools - notepad++, vim, netbeans, whatever". I was faster, for many tasks. Adopting something new was slow. I'm generally glad I did it, but I did it mostly on my own projects, and freelancing. Had I been under pressure to deliver at a high pace while having to undo years of habits/tools/processes that got me where I was at that time, it would have been far more difficult to deal with.

These companies take liability in software seriously, and if someone installs software that damages their employer business, or their employer customers, they better dust off their CV indeed, including the reason why they got fired.

They take liability seriously? How many outright frauds and data leaks are swept under the table?

If you like to work in extremely low trust companies, you do you. If somebody trusts me to write production code but not to pick text editors, they are morons with red tape wrapped around their eyes.

Surprise surprise microsoft is using useful idiots to promote its brand via a free product and in the process threatening smaller business. IntelliJ should sue microsoft in european courts for monopoly. Do you understand the issue here? Or do you imagine all developers should build crud apps while all other tooling should be free?

What monopoly, time to learn law?

The same kind of monopoly microsoft was accused it was when providing free media player and free browser apps. This is just the same type of market abuse except its leveraging people’s free work and not pre installing it inside its own os’. Perhaps you should learn law indeed.

Giving something for free is not monopoly (without preinstallation). You can say other things about this strategy, but you're misusing the word.

The price of acquisition is 0$ but costs telemetry and branding. So microsoft is charging you for this just not money. Even if that wouldnt be the case microsoft did distribute ie and the media player for free, so there is precedence. It may not be distributed part of the os but it is a product set at a price that severely undercuts competition. Worse even the product is developed using free labour yet microsoft benefits in brand recognition. Google does it and in the process it killed plenty of startups or small businesses and got grief for it yet microsoft can get away with it.

VSCode is open source and you are free to alter it (MIT license), removing those parts that you say Microsoft is using to "charge" you. Or just use vscodium.

I'll just use intellij products to support engineering companies.

I think "projector" was a beta/trial thing before fleet. And I could never get it to work. Or... I think I got it to work once, but it was decidedly a not-great experience.

I also find JetBrains completions to be smarter than VS Code's plugins (especially for python).

In my experience it’s the opposite. In VSCode, when you open, say, a .py file for the first time, you automatically get prompted to install the Python plugin. With the JetBrains suite you would have to manually install PyCharm.

IntelliJ definitely prompts me every time I open a new file extension that the plugin isn’t installed for.

Because you do it only once and can use it in any other company you work. It's a highly portable tool for free. What are the chances that your next employer will pay for a JB license?

Honestly, it is basically about a 100% chance that the next employer will pay for JB. I couldn’t imagine an employer refusing to pay $120/yr for a JB license for an employee they are already paying $180,000/yr.

It's more than $120/year for an employee. https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/buy/#commercial?billing=yearl...

Reduced pricing in year 2 and 3, but up front it's $600/year.

And... while someone's base pay may be a lot, these sorts of 'extras' might come from a different budget. And when there are a dozen services you're paying $20-$50/month/seat for, I know some managers start to scrutinize things a bit more. "Can't you just use the free version like other people do?"

The pricing for All Products Pack was initially much less( $249.00 in 2016), and since then, it became one of the minor bills that you just pay because it is so little.

I really like the licensing model they employ.

It's now $289 from $249 for first year - for individual purchases. The corporate/business pricing - seat counts for a company vs tied to your individual name - is the (much?) higher price.

My employee does not pay for JB license, I'm doing that myself and my colleagues are either using community editions or vscode (or cracked ones). He does not pay me $180,000/yr either, LoL, more like $30,000/yr.

Also I think that it's more like $600/yr for companies.

I pay for my own RubyMine and Copilot license. At the end of the day I just want to get the job done as efficient as possible and be done with it so I can do other hobbies or code side projects. If my co-workers want to work harder, that's on them

You're wrongly assuming US salaries. Not everybody gets 180k/year on the other part of the globe. And there are junior/med. devs in US too. Plus the subscription price is 600/year per person if you buy it as an organisation - https://www.jetbrains.com/store/#commercial. If it's a small company, chances are high that they may prefer a cheaper option.

> Because you do it only once

Not really though. Extensions are frequently deprecated or outdated, need to switch to new alternative, don't play nice together, etc.

Anyway, there's no need to advocate for vscode, it's not an underdog. I imagine everyone here has already formed their opinion and tried JB IDEs, vscode, and other tools, and probably make use of all of them somewhere in their workflow.

> Extensions are frequently deprecated or outdated

Unfortunately my experience differs from yours in this area. It all of course depends on the languages you use, what you do, on which side of adoption curve you are, etc.

I work with .Net plus a plenty of web stuff, I'm rather conservative about plugins. And for me everything is quite stable in my area so that the plugins configured 5 years ago still work. Adoption of language server protocol in different languages and frameworks, adoption of .editorconfig helped a lot to stabilize everything.

Usually the images are done per project.

VSCode Web as modern version of X Windows based IDEs is great, as yet another Electron app not really.

Basically microsoft is trying to crush ide makers. To achieve that its leveraging unpaid work. I dont know how someone can celebrate tools such as VSCode that despite being free are clearly products made by a corporation so large that it can crush legitimate businesses. Its not jetbrains trying to fight back vscode. Its jetbrains fighting back microsoft by providing not just good tools but also pay to those that want to build such good tools.

They could still fight back if they come up with the "community edition" similar to PyCharm

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