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Comment by skrap | Hacker News Reader

As a former iOS engineer at Apple, and a dvorak user, I can verify that this is exactly the thinking (during my time) of why dvorak support wasn't a development priority. The properties which make it good for typing make it bad for a phone keyboard.

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This seems like sound logic as long as iOS is only used for phones and an on-screen keyboard; but isn't it used for the iPad as well? And wouldn't a lack of Dvorak support mean you can't use it with your standard external keyboard?

I don't know, I'm not an iOS user but it would hugely inconvenience me if the only way I could use Dvorak on Android is to use a keyboard with a hardware Dvorak layout.

Edit: Indeed, it appears that iOS supports Dvorak layout for external keyboards already; this is supporting the native on-screen keyboard

> Indeed, it appears that iOS supports Dvorak layout for external keyboards already

This is a little ambiguous, I assume you mean a (rare) hardware Dvorak keyboard, not that iOS supports remapping a standard ANSI external keyboard to Dvorak - but correct me if that's wrong.

Yes, your assumption here is off - iOS supports remapping standard external keyborads to Dvorak. I’m typing this on Dvorak on my iPad with a standard Logitech keyboard connected via the Smart Connector.

That's good to know, thanks!

It made sense to me. Luckily, Dvorak support for hardware keyboards has been always available on iOS.

I'm surprised to hear this. It seems like the point is clearly to allow existing Dvorak (desktop) users to avoid switching formats when they switch devices. It shouldn't matter whether Dvorak is optimal for typing on a phone.

This really doesn't matter because the "muscle memory" doesn't carry between the two formats.

Disagree. I've been almost an exclusive Dvorak user for 15+ years, and the muscle memory absolutely carries over.

The muscle memory of touch typing, by definition of muscle memory, does not carry over to thumb typing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory

Good point. Though a significant part of typing speed is your _spacial_ memory (where is the J key on the keyboard?).

Your _muscle_ memory makes you good at moving your fingers (or thumbs) to an absolute position on your keyboard (or screen) - but to do that you must first decide what absolute position your finger (or thumb) should move to (where is the J key?).

And yet, somehow, I feel like it was a lot faster for me to learn how to type on an iPhone--nearly instant, really--because it was using QWERTY instead of having the letters in a random order, so it isn't clear to me that what you are saying matters even if it were true.

Yes, and as others point out iOS has long supported Dvorak (and Colemak and a few others) where that desktop muscle memory matters: when using a hardware keyboard via Bluetooth.

Qwerty is useful for "swipe typing" on a touch screen and Dvorak/Colemak is great for touch typing on hardware and the way "muscle memory" works those are such different media/muscle movements that they have separate "muscle memory".

True. I was happy when I switched to Android because Dvorak was available as an on screen keyboard. I didn't last for more than a day with it. Dvorak is terrible for on screen typing.

Was there any research into what keyboard would be the ideal phone layout (presumably something entirely new)?

Back in the Days of Yore we had something called "Fitaly", which was supposed to be optimized for pen typing: https://textware.com/fitaly/fitaly.htm

I loved Fitaly and the associated ecosystem. Palm, Handspring, the usable stylus on a 160x160 screen...

Few years ago someone posted a link on HN of a keyboard that was designed for optimum swiping, fewest overlaps and what not.

It faced the same problem as all new keyboard designs, getting people to use it.

If you are on Android, you can find plenty of research project keyboards that are indeed more efficient to use, after you get over the learning curve.

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