All the handwringing about stifling innovation is on its face ridiculous as mandates to use micro-usb didn't stop android phones from adopting the new and better standard as soon as it was viable.
As a sidetone it's astonishing how quickly a lie easily disprovable by publicly accessible information, in this case the EU's own website, can be spread around by people that otherwise seem like credible HN members.
Apple didn't follow that Memorandum, the EU got pissed, so now we reached the "or else" part (it took quite some time considering the Memorandum was more than 10 years ago).
[1] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/MEMO_1...
Just to add a step: Samsung got pissed, and told the EU either regulate, or we do our own thing too like Apple.
Replying to sibling: that 30-pin connector predates the Memorandum. It's exactly such chargers that the EU wanted to regulate at the time. Every company had their own incompatible charger.
[1] https://www.amazon.de/Original-Samsung-USB-lDatenkabel-ECC1D...
“Of course” also because Apple's 30-pin connector was only approved for purchase and use by certified (read: paying) third parties.
But yeah, I absolutely do not miss those 30-pin connectors.
So all their ads in the EU would have to show a stupid dongle hanging off the phone, like a vestigial tail.
If that original legislation was binding, we likely never would have gotten USB-C in the first place.
So this is a significant difference.
As a EU mandate implies that organizations can be prosecuted for ignoring it.
This law is by all intents and purposes a law directed at Apple, who is the sole hold-out of the large mobile phone manufacturers regarding proprietary charging connectors.
... huh ? https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_11_...
> Following a mandate from the European Commission, the European Standardisation Bodies CEN-CENELEC and ETSI issued the harmonised standards to be adhered to by data-enabled mobile phones compatible with the new common charger as of 2011. The common charger solution is based in the Micro-USB connector technology
Or they would have spent the past 10 years fining Apple for violating them.
This is how self regulation can work. And in this case it nearly worked, Apple pretty much being the lone holdout.
It is sort of weird that they decided to mandate USB-C rather than creating an ongoing group to keep track of charging and update the rules accordingly (like in the US, where many of our laws create an agency to regulate something rather than having congress pass a new, slightly different law every couple years)
The law states that the European Commission shall monitor market development, market fragmentation, and technological progress, and report on it every few years.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.engadget.com/amp/2010-12-29...
None of it was binding or involuntary. Which is why Apple never released a micro-B phone and all other manufacturers were able to upgrade to USB-C.
Maybe you think the original nonbinding agreement had a threat of force behind it, but it had no immediate consequences if manufacturers changed ports. Manufacturers were allowed to upgrade to new ports. And they did. That is how we got the innovation of USB-C.
Manufacturers are no longer able to upgrade to better ports. People saying "this won't stifle innovation because we still got USB-C" have things totally backwards.
Fully-cached AMP pages like the one you shared are especially problematic.
Maybe check out the canonical page instead:
https://www.engadget.com/2010-12-29-european-standardization...
I'm not sure I understand your logic here. Android phones were able to quickly move to micro USB because they weren't restricted from doing so by a government regulation.
If there was a government mandate requiring phones to have whatever connector came before micro USB, wouldn't that have prevented the Android phones from changing connectors/choosing the new innovation?
Or was there a location where micro USB was required by law before, and since I don't live there, I wasn't affected by it?
Edit: Strike that last sentence, since I see in other responses that there was, indeed, a location where micro USB was mandated. So my new question is: How does a company change to a new/better connector, if it's required by law to use an old connector?
Edit edit: Looks like other responses show there was no mandate, that's just something that people on HN assume. It was a recommendation, not a law, like it is now.
EU is pushing for "One charger for all" for a long time. Here is an article from 2011 [1], so this is nothing new. I don't think they enforced it at the time, but the manufacturers (and the EU?) agreed to use Micro USB. Now they are going for USB-C, so they definitely are not in the way of innovation. I think if there is an agreement between manufacturers to support a new standard, it will be adapted.
[1] https://www.theverge.com/apple/2011/10/4/2469886/apple-relea...
Phone manufacturers signed a non-binding MoU, agreeing to use Micro USB. This was completely voluntary. That is why they were able to upgrade to USB-C without any issue.
This law is different. It would be illegal to upgrade to a better port. And the barrier to creating, testing, and having adoption for a new port just became way higher than it was before.
It would be like a nation state deciding to change its standard electric socket, like a country with US sockets switching to EU sockets. Doesn’t sound easy.
Dunno, we have a test case tho: how'd the Micro-B to USB-C transition go in EU markets?
But it’s going quite quickly, and most of the apple devices I bought recently already have USB-C in one way or another, and the actual problem for me is replacing power banks and chargers so that they support USB-C as well. Most of them assume USB-C == “high power slot”, when I just need a few of them for smaller stuff (AirPods and Apple Watch both came with USB-C cables).
That way regulation provides the stick to force standardisation, but allows whatever new innovations develop later to have a chance at gaining a foothold. If we find ourselves in this situation again (with a single holdout) we can force the standardisation for a period of time again.
> Reporting: the Commission would be required to report to the Parliament and Council on the application of the directive regarding new charging technologies every three years, starting from three years after the date of entry into force of the directive (article 47(2a) RED). By the same date, it would also be required to report on the impact of the possibility to acquire devices without any charging device and cable (article 3a(1) RED).
Perhaps the EU should step in to force industry to do what is right in all cases, not just charging cables:
- ban e2e encryption - pedos and criminals use it
- mandate client-side CSAM scanning on all devices, report directly to local police instead of going through untrustworthy Apple (they can’t even get charging cables right, can we trust them to protect your child?)
- require all new devices to be tamper resistant so you can’t get around EU laws
- require all phones to be the same shape and size so that citizens can re-use screen protectors and cases in perpetuity
- ban purple devices - it offends EU bureaucrats, and obviously the continued existence of purple phones is evidence of the industry’s failure to self-regulate. EU bureaucrats know better than the market and always have.
[1]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=LEGISSUM...
That's a lot of money for a startup to burn on something inconsequential instead of using off-the-shelf stuff for the least important area where you can innovate.
Also, I haven't put a charging cable into my phone since... 2012 or something like that when the Nexus 4 came out. Ever since I tried wireless charging, going back to regularly using a charging cable feels like going back to the stone age.
So by the EU establishing a thing, any changes you make to it are ... by definition ... innovation :)
Once they establish a new standard, the thing that they established is no longer innovative, it is the new baseline for the next innovation.
At least, as innovation is actually defined (the colloquial usage is very messy, as you can see in this thread, making it very easy for people to talk past each other).
But let's be practical for a second - what exactly are you looking for? What is this next physical connector innovation you are worrying you need that won't exist now?
I ask because almost all desire in phone connectors has been the same since the beginning of phone connectors. It is not new. The change in connectors was not driven by change in desire, only around capability. people want them to be reasonably sized, easy to put in/take out, not easily fall out, not break ever, charge the phone fast, and send data from the phone to a thing fast (audio/video/etc are a subset of this).
That's it. That's always been it. For a long time, tradeoffs had to be made, and you could not achieve all desires at once. That hasn't been true for a decade. At this point, all desires are fulfilled.
Over fulfilled in fact - the capability of the connectors have well outstripped the need of phones.
There isn't anything left to do. It's done. Unless new customer desires come along, and they haven't for decades, there isn't innovation left to be had. The closest you come to difference is "should i make it be held by a magnet or by itself", which, while some are vocal about it, is a very minor preference (again, at least by data).
It's also easy to claim things like "well you don't know what will come along", but as i said, what comes along is driven by customer desire. What is the unfulfilled customer desire that physical phone connectors can innovate to achieve at this point?
Both the connector and port are too large and the tip of the cable protrudes too far. I have an assortment of 90 degree elbows for my growing USB device collection and the myriad of different features each cable has or doesn't have(Hdmi 4k120fps, Quest Link, Thunderbolt, etc) to keep my inputs flush and organized. When connecting to a laptop you're stuck with either dangling dongles or unsightly protrusions.
As someone who actually owns over a dozen or so USB-C devices they're nowhere near as interchangeable as promised and quite frankly they suck and are hardly done improving. The last time UsB ports tried to differentiate themselves was when they started painting them blue but nowadays you have no idea what a given port can and cant do(e.g PD) unless it's explicitly written somewhere.
How is that less confusing than "this is an iphone/airpods/apple keyboard cable and this is an everything else cable" to a consumer? The fact that all new improvements will have to go through some totally unbiased and impartial incorruptible committee is terrifying.
Well good news - unless something changes in material science or cost of materials dramatically changes, this won't change :) So you don't have to worry about this.
Recessing the connector does not require a change to the connector, but making them actually smaller would be very hard.
"The fact that all new improvements will have to go through some totally unbiased and impartial incorruptible committee is terrifying."
There are no new improvements coming that require a new connector. There haven't been for a long time. There is no evidence to suggest they are coming anytime soon.
For all the people who keep saying it will have to go to a committee, not a single person has said what the magic improvement they think this will block actually is
(you at least gave an answer, but your answer is not actually possible anytime soon)
The way they fray near the connector. It is truly inovative how one of the worlds most inovative companies has been unable to figure out how to wrap plastic around a wire.
All phones use 'thinner' and better chargers than they did 10 years ago.
It's unbelievable how people are default supporting this completely unnecessary intervention.
This is exactly the kind of bad regulation we worry about, because it might have immediate populist appeal, it's ultimately not really a win.
There are so many other things that need regulation aka app store rules, pay pal taking your money.
There's nary any real advantage in 'single charger' and it'll make evolution that much harder.
Maybe if Apple would make their lightning an open free standard, this would be now adopted, but since Apple is... well Apple their arrogance met the laws of place not governed by corporations (that much)
This is an extremely bad reason to support this legislation.
The government could legislate any number of product changes, they don't do that, because that's not their role.
Apple has always been a leader in these areas, and this kind of thing will definitely stifle from making the decisions they need to, in addition to the fact their are all sorts of unintended design consequences on these forced choices.
There are really only 2 kinds of charges floating around these days, and several mechanisms for handling both, it's not even a 1/10 on the problems we face.
This is really bad populism, the EU is running up the wrong tree here.
In many cases they do, because it is their role. They have done so now with charging cables. You can whine about it until you turn blue but the objective fact remains that the EU has now made regulation of charging cables part of their role.
Roles of governments aren't set in stone, they can in response to changing cultural and social norms, corporate practices, economic conditions, etc. The EU is not obliged to neatly confine itself according to your demands.
Why isn't it? Is there a certain "size" an issue needs to be before it becomes government-appropriate? How do you determine that size?
most annoying.
Notable exception of course are British, but they are not part of EU as we all know too well.
It makes life so much easier. I can't understand why anybody would ever oppose this, either vested interest or butthurt ego?
The CEE 7/7 plug works both in the Schuko Type F socket and the French Type E socket. The former covers 30ish countries, the latter covers 5.
The only countries which do not use either E or F are:
- Denmark, which is the only country to use Type K. It (relatively) recently allowed installing E or F sockets too, so K will probably die out over time.
- Italy, which is the only country to use Type L. It is rapidly switching to L+F hybrids, as most devices sold these days are equipped with CEE 7/7
- Ireland, which uses the British plug. As far as I am aware, no intention to change. Doing so would probably start a civil war.
And outside the EU there are the UK and Switzerland.
The EU considered this years ago, and decided the switch wasn't worth the cost.
The type G plug is the best design available, by a very long way. If anything, that should be adopted by the EU and indeed the rest of the world.
- fused in the plug
- longer earth pin opens the live terminals to prevent accidental or inadvertent insertion into the live or neutral parts of the socket
- sockets are usually switched which avoids sparks when plugging in
They have multiple safety features that stem from ancient wiring systems used in UK, but they aren't inherently "better".
They don't even deliver more power, for the bulkiness of them.
You could always grandfather in old construction and only enforce the standard for new construction or renovations.
No they didn't, compliance is voluntary, just read the linked wiki page.
I agree with the point that it won't stifle Innovation though. The swift passing of the USB-C mandate has proven to me that the EU can move quickly, so if a new connector comes along they will be able to switch the law reasonably quickly.
I think 4 years is a reasonable time frame. Especially considering they weren't sitting around doing nothing for 4 years, most of it was research and surveys
Is compliance voluntary for this new ruling?
That's not really voluntary.
Well. I'm lugging around one cable which charges all my devices from bike lamps to powerbanks. And there is a totally different cable I'm also lugging around to charge my iphone. Why is that necessary?
Also my iphone charging cable frays all time, while my "everything else charging cable" does not.
Because you chose to buy a phone that uses Lightning, rather than choosing to buy a phone that uses USB-C.
Similar to how I voted for Biden even though I don't agree with 100% of his policies. It doesn't mean I don't disagree with him often - it's just that I only get one vote, so I have to prioritize. It's perfectly consistent for me to complain and make my opinion known when his administration does things I disagree with.
I'm trying to vote for a device that runs iOS and uses a standard usb cable. Please specify the ballot box.
As far as I know, the marketplace offers no choice, so I need to use alternative voting to make it available
Why is any product feature necessary or not?
If you want to buy something with a USB-C then buy that. If you want Apple to change then let them know.
"Get the government to make a company make a choice I want" is really naive and glib.
There is no systematic issue here - if this were household wiring, there would be, but this is not that.
Every product has different configurations, different requirements. In particular, with smart phones, the extra thickness of the USBC actually makes it harder to design around - the issues has side effects.
Governments should be regulating where there is a material necessity or safety concern, not otherwise.
In particular - your 'bike lamps and power lamps' have totally different product requirements.
The government could conceivably help an Engineering body to promote a narrower set of clean standards, but this is too much.
>>> From spring 2026, the obligation will extend to laptops
So this would force Apple to replace MagSafe with USB-C? How is that not killing innovation?
Standardisation should be a goal, but I just feel this particular effort is too specific and brings very little value to consumers. Why don't we standardise payment protocols instead? Or biometric identity verification? Or ID cards even (that the UK is allergic to)? I just feel the spirit of these efforts can be applied so much more successfully elsewhere.
Depends how the law is written.
"Must have at least one USB C port for charging"? Then current laptops with magsafe are already compliant.
"Must only have …"? Then I would agree it goes too far.
Like SEPA and PSD2?
> Or biometric identity verification?
Such as AFIS or maybe EU 2019/1157?
> Or ID cards even (that the UK is allergic to)?
EU 2019/1157 again?
It's not like EU standardisation of chargers is an outlier.
My last Macbook had 5? different ports on it, two of which were older USB standards.
Nothing stops apple from ALSO having a proprietary connector, as long as USB-C is still an option to charge.
> Why don't we standardise payment protocols instead? Or biometric identity verification? Or ID cards even (that the UK is allergic to)?
None of these result in hundreds of thousands of tons of plastic and copper or other metals being put in a landfill or dumped in the sea because they were only useful for 3-5 models of a single businesses devices.
Apple is still free to make this e-waste, but now their devices must support charging on USB-C, which they are free to NOT make their own chargers for, as long as it's standard-compliant and supported
Just as you can with MS Surface.
It's not such a great innovation if it makes users life harder.