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Comment by NextHendrix | Hacker News Reader

This gives me some cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, having a common connector will reduce waste and be much more convenient (eg "Hey have you got an iPhone charger?") and make losing a charger a cheaper mistake. On the other hand I'm not sure I like the idea of government mandating electrical connectors on devices, which could stifle innovation, or be very shortsighted in the typical government-rules-on-tech way (eg "banning encryption").

I don't know what to think.

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Thank God nobody ever standardized electrical plugs. I'd hate being able to plug my vacuum cleaner and laptop in the same outlet.

I have traveled to parts of the developing world where standardization hasn't happened and it's a huge mess

Yeah, I have bad memories from Italy, too.

About Europe, you mean? The problem is not Italy, it’s different EU countries abiding different standards.

Have you seen this outside Italy? Everywhere else in Europe I've always seen the Europlug, it's only Italy where sometimes you have the weird 3-in-a-line plug, at least in Western Europe

Denmark has the smiley face plug. It works fine if you don't need a grounded connection, but still.. they have a lot of sockets that don't follow the EU standard.

I think France has the one where the ground pin sticks out? That can be a problem depending on which cable you have.

And then there's UK of course, though they're not part of EU anymore.

We have the UK plugs in Ireland too and we’re in the EU. I wish it was feasible to switch to the europlug, I wouldn’t have to carry a handful of adapters around when travelling.

Your comment really got me thinking. Or actually continue thinking since I recently met some N.I. relatives in France and noticed their plethora of plug adapters. I almost forgot Ireland (the whole island) uses a UK style plug as I haven't been there in a while due to life and covid, and meanwhile have travelled a lot in Europe. Meanwhile, I grew up in Canada (US style plugs), recently lived in Japan for a decade (US style plugs), recently traveled a lot for work between Japan and Europe, but sometimes also UAE (UK style plugs). I just moved to mainland Europe and living in Ireland is a possibility someday.

In tech circles like HN, I have seen the UK style plug and its fuse and local power switch lauded for its superior safety, but it's really just belt and suspenders added to make up for old, cheap not forward-thinking design. I like US style plugs because they are small, and for portable stuff often have a folding design that saves space. But I'm biased because I have only lived in Canada and Japan until recently so naturally all my stuff uses this standard.

In addition to that I am a huge nerd about plugs, chargers and travel adapters. Anything I have that is remotely portable is usb-c powered. I've hacked every old wireless mouse, keyboard, headphones that I own to use usb-c to reduce the number of cables and adapters I need for life and travel to the minimum[1]. I don't recommend this to you or anyone else but when I do end up with a UK plug power source, I use a plastic pen lid to brute force my europlug adapter into a UK socket.

Changing to europlug in Ireland is an interesting topic. It would be so tough to phase-in europlugs given that one of the differences is the UK plug with fuse is possible to use with ring circuits. And changing existing ring circuits to radial (each circuit goes back to the breaker box on an independent wiring run) would be expensive enough in wood-framed houses/North America but incredibly expensive in Ireland. Ireland is famously mostly deforested, so old houses are usually stone and new ones are usually concrete. On top of that, Ireland didn't experience recent destruction and rebuilding/postwar-rebuilding like mainland Europe did. A lot of houses[2] are very old, and many are protected cultural assets even if privately owned so you couldn't just send any old contractor in to start drilling holes and carving out channels or adding wall-mounted conduit for new wiring. It wouldn't be popular to spend on this or to potentially scar a lot of historical or family homes.

On the other hand, post-brexit there could be enough will to align more to the single EU marketplace. I don't want to be that guy that speculates "just do this" on a topic I am not an expert in, but I didn't find any serious proposal or discussion by googling it. I think the solution would be to require local outlets or permanent adapters that assume the function of the fuse in UK plugs at each outlet, and provide both EU and UK plug compatibility. You wouldn't want to allow temporary adapters because any unqualified person could make a working but unsafe configuration. You wouldn't want to force EU plugs on everyone because that would also encourage unsafe modification/adapters, or be unpopular/expensive by requiring modification of an antique device.

[1] If you are comfortable with soldering, filing, 3d printing and taking things apart, you can find usb-c sockets with the appropriate resistors installed, and tiny dc-dc converter boards with usb-c input on aliexpress, and easily update old low-power, stuff from micro-usb, barrel connector, etc to usb-c. I even added usb-c power to my NES, SNES, gamecube, wii and wii-u.

[2] I say houses and not buildings because I want to highlight the considerations for the average person, and I also presume anything commercial or open to the public already mandates using the latest building codes and safety features above all considerations. This is evident when you visit a beautiful ancient castle or church and see a jarring green exit sign, or handrails and conduit laid all over the place on top of ancient stonework. Of course, many of these places due their best to conceal modern things and keep everything beautiful except for the green exit signs. But Ireland would have to commit to funding the work to upgrade all of the family heirloom old houses.

Italy has unusually messed up mains electricity. It’s worth taking a look at their entry on this page https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets#I...

Traveling much of Europe (humble brag) the only places where I have seen some noticeable difference is Britain (of course) Italy and Malta. That being said, any remotely modern building or establishment expecting travelers on Malta or Italy has plugs with at least USB-A or the two prong "European" (with the round prongs, don't know the standard name).

There are at least 3 different standards for wall plugs in the Eu.

And europlug is compatible with all of them for low powered devices.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, they're all part of the same standard, CEE 7, but have different purposes and are intentionally incompatible.

No. Include the UK/Ireland plug in that.

The UK is not in the EU and use all kinds of weird units and other nonsense. If they had stayed in the EU long enough, they would have caught up eventually, as will Italy.

I wonder how long before IE goes with EU standards instead of UK ones, now that the UK has exited?

I doubt we're changing the side of the road we drive on, but now it's much more expensive to import LHD used cars from the UK. I doubt that we're changing power plugs because there's hundreds of millions of them out there.

I'm not sure that other EU standards there would be that we don't have, being an EU member, except for decent cycling and mass transport infra, and that would be dramatic improvement.

> I doubt that we're changing power plugs because there's hundreds of millions of them out there.

Could be done, with adapters.

Having travelled the EU with Irish/UK plugs on my electronics, it's a pain in the ass unless you have swapped the plug on several power strips.

Also, basically all of the adapters say not for long term use, and they're nowhere near as stout or secure as either type of plug alone.

Anyway, the UK plug is the best one out there, except for stepping on them. They're worse than legos, and that's saying something. (and maybe size, weight, and cost. But electrically, they're good)

true but also false: italian, french and german standards (and the rest of smaller european countries) are different but compatible. and i'm glad for that.

This is a great example in that residential electrical systems evolve at a snails pace. There's almost no innovation and most houses are full of dangerous legacy systems because regulation makes updating difficult and expensive.

Also of note: you aren't required by national or state law to use any kind of electrical system in the U.S. The National Electric Code is not a binding document. It's up to individual municipalities to decide whether they want to adopt it (or some other standard, which they're free to do).

Except electricians and the companies that insure them for professional liability, or the companies that insure houses against electrical fires use that national code as a reference, same for building codes, etc.

It's interesting to read the comments here from people that have equipment and stuff in their houses and cars and workplaces that are constrained by regulations and laws all around them, but are worried about a connector on their phone.

A "free" market needs regulation otherwise it develops into monopolies. Setting standards is a way to regulate to ensure a level playing field for competition.

It's not like the EU has rushed this decision, or that anyone is proposing some other standard that wasn't considered.

The question of whether standards are beneficial and whether the government should mandate standards are two completely separate questions.

Well only governments can mandate standards, and if they don't it's just wishful thinking isn't it?

There are plenty of non governmental standards. Some like openGL or http are driven by industry consortiums. Others like keurig/Nespresso generic pods, x86 chips, or cup holder sizes are driven by compatibility with wildly successful products.

Edit: usb-c is both the former and the latter. Macbooks and ipads had already switched, it seems likely the next iphone would have been usb-c anyway, or perhaps portless.

You don't even know what else could have happened if there was no standardization. Maybe the industry must have progressed without the need of outlets in the first place.

Yeah, we would definitely use nuclear mini-reactors in our vacuum cleaners otherwise, if only it wasn’t for the damn EU!

These are very well understood areas, there is only so many ways you can transport electricity. Also, there is nothing stopping innovation “after” the plug. It’s like saying that HTTP somehow stifles innovation.

HTTPS is a technology choosen by the free market. Bad example.

> You don't even know what else could have happened if there was no standardization.

Yes, I do. There would be no standard.

> Maybe the industry must have progressed without the need of outlets in the first place.

Wireless electricity? Maybe, maybe not. 99.999999% probability for the latter, though.

There is no law to force you to standardize your electrical plugs.

I am similarly of two minds. As an engineer, I can imagine how legal mandates for technology choices could stifle innovation and make the future of technology worse.

But at the same time, I think there may be a place for mandating interface compatibility.

To give some old-school examples, how differently might industrialization have gone if rail systems weren't mandated to operate under some shared standards? Or where would we be if every country had a handful of competing power grids with different voltages and outlet types?

So I am not sure the cable which plugs into our phones is the correct target for standardization, but in spirit I think it's worthwhile to consider how the public good of interoperability should be weighed against a handful of corporations' interest in building technological moats around themselves and their users.

> To give some old-school examples, how differently might industrialization have gone if rail systems weren't mandated to operate under some shared standards?

I'm not sure that analogy holds particularly well. The UK did build rail systems without shared standards, and only standardised on gauge in 1846, which was very late in the industrial revolution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Gauge_War - Standards for other things like signalling also came late, and broad gauge was still in use until 1892. (Notably though, this did happen just at the turn of Railway Mania, so affected a lot of the new lines.)

Effectively, the UK let (mainly by omission, not intentionally) the solutions compete and then selected the most broadly used solution to standardise on.

(I'd love to see any scholarly research on this though; I haven't seen a huge degree of it. Obviously things are different outside of the UK, but given it's where (uncoincidentally) both the industrial revolution and railways were born, that's the clear case to look at.)

> Effectively, the UK let (mainly by omission, not intentionally) the solutions compete and then selected the most broadly used solution to standardise on.

We're down to two connectors here, one of which is only used by a single vendor; do you think that hasn't already happened?

I’m not questioning that at all! I’m only responding to the question posed by the parent about railway standardisation in the context of industrialisation.

What happened is the worse more common standard was converged upon, so instead of the west coast main line having a comfortable, stable 7’ gauge, we ended up with the less comfortable standard gauge that requires longer trains to seat the same number of people.

I think that’s what weirds me out. In cases like rail, it’s necessary for interoperability and prevents anti competitive practices. There’s a clear state interest there.

But swapping a plug doesn’t buy us that. This is evidenced by the fact that no company is forced to use lightning to compete.

Almost everything uses USB-A at the outlet and choose your other end. We’re starting to see USB-C at the outlet, but same thing.

I also don’t see the e-waste argument. I haven’t had a cable outlive a device. My kids go through them every other month. No plug fixes that, it’s almost always where the cable joins the plug. (Except micro-USB, we shall never speak of that again).

My other biggest practical problem is that, despite appearances, USB-C != USB-C, and the off-the-shelf cables are awful, especially for normal humans.

In my dream world, I’d love to see clearly labeled device and cord capabilities, and USB-C all the things, and a reigned in USB-C spec.

I just think that government is a bad place to do it, and don’t see a necessary state interest case for their intervention.

> I also don’t see the e-waste argument. I haven’t had a cable outlive a device.

My old Nokia Micro-B cables outlived their bundled devices by a factor of… 3x or so? And I only took those out of use because I don't have a lot of stuff that still uses Micro-B.

Actually, I don't think I've ever managed to break a USB cable yet. What on earth are you doing to the things?!

Apple cables were notoriously shitty for many years, because they didn't build strain relief into them, until a couple generations ago, and they would fray with time.

I imagine this is what GP experienced, based on my experience with it on iphones and apple laptops.

Come to think of it, I don’t break them. It’s when I let my kids borrow/take them. Except micro, those connectors just wear out in a year or two.

My kids keep their tablets plugged in while using a lot of the time. I think it’s the stress on the joint from having the cable taut or yanking it around or something.

I did change to making them pay for replacements. That definitely slowed the rate :).

I can “reassure” you: this is unambiguously a bad idea.

First, market forces already standardized on two main standards.

Second, the interop problem is a $10 cable between wall-wart and device.

So the problem solved is a small one. I think this idea got its momentum from years ago when practically every model of phone had a different charger and wall wart.

Meanwhile, think about what you lose.

Is USB-C really the end-game of charging connectors? It has existing issues with labeling and capabilities confusion. What about mag-safe-style connectors? Does a phone necessarily need a charging connector at all and might there not be advantages to not having one?

As an aside, ewaste will increase in the short term, of course, as people will have to throw out their lighting stuff and buy USB-C stuff. (Don’t worry, it’s not a lot — small problem, remember.)

> First, market forces already standardized on two main standards.

EU sat down the manufacturers and told them that if they don't come to an agreement the EU will make the choice for them. Most of them came to an agreement. So you are right, market forces did make manufacturers to standardize on two main standards. That force is named EU.

> Is USB-C really the end-game of charging connectors?

No, and EU has no illusions that it is.

> Does a phone necessarily need a charging connector at all and might there not be advantages to not having one?

No, and the EU doesn't think that it does.

> As an aside, ewaste will increase in the short term, of course, as people will have to throw out their lighting stuff and buy USB-C stuff. (Don’t worry, it’s not a lot — small problem, remember.)

This is just stupid fearmongering. People won't have to throw their lightning stuff.

I don't think EU regulation works the way you think it does.

> This is just stupid fearmongering.

I guess if you can't make a good point, you can always hurl insults.

What do you think people who upgrade their iPhones in 2024 will do with their lightning cables which no longer connect to anything they have?

Even if they throw them out, it's better to pull off the bandaid than to go on creating more and more redundant cables and e-waste for the next 30 years

> What do you think people who upgrade their iPhones in 2024 will do with their lightning cables which no longer connect to anything they have?

sell

The EU market for cables with lightning connectors will be contracting for some reason at that time.

New iphones come with a cable.

> First, market forces already standardized on two main standards.

So, one standard too many. Especially when one of those standards is held hostage by one corporation.

> Is USB-C really the end-game of charging connectors?

It's close enough, we can already see that improvements have been incredibly incremental already. Hell, it would have been fine to stick to micro-B or even mini-B.

> What about mag-safe-style connectors?

You already have people building those as third-party dongles. Clearly it doesn't have to be part of the spec.

> Does a phone necessarily need a charging connector at all

Yes. Wireless charging is inherently far less efficient than wired charging.

> and might there not be advantages to not having one?

No. To steal a quote from yourself: this is unambiguously a bad idea.

But you're assuming this USB-C decision is eternal right? Couldn't the problems you raised be solved by having a standards organization which could monitor and update the status quo over time based on the technologies available?

Which already exists -- without EU regulatory processes to encumber them.

> stifle innovation

We have plenty of free market examples of why "innovation" in the connector space almost always spawns lemons and makes everything worse in the meantime.

Do we? By the same token what are examples of where innovation in the connector space helped out?

I find laws like this problematic because measuring success or failure is super tricky. How do you know about innovation that hasn't happened? If in 5 years or 10 years we're using USB-C connectors is that great or does it mean there's some better idea that isn't being taken to market? I'm sure there are subject matter experts who might confidently weigh in on that but could they realistically get this law changed? Even if those experts agreed there was a better solution would the majority of the incumbent players in the space want that solution?

Laws like this create a situation where opposition depends upon people missing things they've never had and wanting things that they can't conceive of.

> By the same token what are examples of where innovation in the connector space helped out?

Power plugs (per country), audio jacks, gas plugs.

Or do you miss the experience of being able to plug your GM car in GM-Approved™ gas stations?

> Do we?

Yes, EV charging in the states.

> On the other hand I'm not sure I like the idea of government mandating electrical connectors on devices

Depends on the device.

Standards for EV fast charging are a very good thing. North America has two different plugs and protocols for DC fast charging (three if you count CHAdeMO) and it's a mess. The EU has standardized on CCS Type 2 Combo so any brand of CCS charging car can charge on any brand of CCS charging network. That's good common sense and it benefits everyone.

Incompatible charging infrastructure doesn't benefit any EV owner. It's a drag on the EV market. Closed networks like Tesla's and Rivian's are continuing to be part of the problem.

Tesla is (very) slowly changing in North America:

https://www.theverge.com/2021/7/28/22596337/tesla-supercharg...

Rivian still hasn't got the memo. Rivian's chargers are at least CCS but because they're brand exclusive they don't see much use:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbvW0nK38j8

Those chargers could be earning more revenue right now instead of sitting idle. All they have to do is unlock the software.

> Closed networks like Tesla's and Rivian's are continuing to be part of the problem.

All new Tesla stations in Europe use CCS and most of the older stations have been retrofitted with CCS connectors in addition to Type 2.

I have an adaptor for my 2017 Model S that allows it to use CCS instead of Type 2 and newer cars can be converted so that CCS connectors can be used without adaptors. All new EVs in Europe already use CCS and Tesla are slowly opening up their network to other brands of car.

So how is Tesla part of the problem?

Relevant to this discussion: Tesla only uses CCS in EU because it was mandated by law, just like USB-C now will be.

> All new EVs in Europe already use CCS and Tesla are slowly opening up their network to other brands of car.

Yes. You're restating what I have said. Tesla should hurry up and open them all.

> So how is Tesla part of the problem?

Because Tesla chargers are not open to all brands everywhere.

A better question to ask is why is Tesla not the leader in multi-brand charging. Other charging networks have delivered chargers which support all brands of EV with longer cables for more vehicle types and are faster than Tesla's chargers to boot.

How can I charge my Volvo truck on Tesla's existing chargers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UAttTG03WA

What about my bus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lNTjJW7HEY

How do I charge my Porsche Taycan on Tesla's chargers at 800 volts instead of this 400 volt business: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0F42jY3dD8

How do I charge my BMW without blocking another charger due to Tesla's short-sighted charger design: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y33AArvMUQ

Tesla's V4 chargers will apparently have longer cables, but Tesla is still no Alpitronic.

I wouldn’t be too concerned. They did it before to standardise on micro USB, in such a way that didn’t stop manufacturers from moving to USB-C. This is really just an update of that same rule.

How did Apple dodge this with micro-USB?

It was not a law, but an agreement (to stop the EU enacting a law) and dongles were sufficient. This is a law and dongles aren't sufficient.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply - they included a dongle that allowed micro-USB charging of iPhones.

A dongle was available.

Imagine if every house in the US has different types of outlet shapes and sizes and voltages instead of our standard 120v, 15A 20A 3 prong outlets.

(Minus specialized sockets like 240v, 30A, etc.)

It would be ridiculous to have adapters and specialized plugs for everything for such a basic purpose.

Electricity in the US is such a mess though, it's so easy to reach the limit of a 120V/15A circuit.

The general principle is wait for the dust to settle and then enforce whatever is the industry majority with an agreed mature tech.

Btw the same thing happened with the EV charging (SAE J1772).

EV connector is different in EU.

The principle is the same IEC 62196.

Does no-one remember how there were like 50 different phone connectors in the early 2000s?

This is why we all (apart from Apple) settled on one standard

This so much. This era was defined by vendor lock-in. Getting e.g. a dedicated car phone audio setup was tough decision, since you could not just change the phone.

I still have a box of old phones with custom chargers, headsets and data cables. The Nokia barrel plug (different sizes), the Siemens comb style connector, the Ericsson break away type connector, the Motorola two prong, the Bosch connector and some really weird LG/NEC/SAGEM plugs.

Good riddance.

Yes, exactly: The market could innovate and develop better connectors. For example Apples Lightning, which is older (and smaller/more robust) than USB-C. Imagine instead the EU mandating micro USB and how we would be forced till the end of times to have a 50% chance to plugging it in wrong.

Is USB-C the best connector or form factor we could ever do?

Maybe not, but it is good enough. "Perfect is the enemy of good" is a phrase I like to keep in mind while programming or making something and can also apply here. Should we wait around for a perfect connector? Or is USB-C as close as we can get as of now?

Forcing everyone to change cables creates waste. Apple is teh onyl company that might not have already been using USBC by the time this went into effect, and now all their customers that already had lightning cables and accessories will have to throw them out of get adapters. Not to mention that by then we will probably already be talking about USB-D or whatever is coming next. Maybe the USB counsel can just conglomerate everything under the usbc name so that companies can just use whatever they want. "Micro usbc, its just micro usb but with a new name!". Maybe that is why they have been renaming all their skews every 6 months.

I wonder if they will just be able to ship iphones with lightning cables and a usbc adapter and a usbc to lightning port adapter so the customers can just throw out the adapters and use the lightning cables.

Plenty of Apple products already use USB-C. Apple products aside, I'm sure the average household has USB-C cables by now

Besides, existing phones are obviously going to stay Lightning. Cables aren't going to be thrown out any earlier than the phones themselves

At this point, I think even the average household in developing countries has USB-C. And that's probably due to entry-level android phone makers choosing to go with it.

> On the other hand I'm not sure I like the idea of government mandating electrical connectors on devices, which could stifle innovation, or be very shortsighted in the typical government-rules-on-tech way

You seem unaware that the government regulate a LOT of things and while this has stiffed some innovation, the cost is probably worth it.

When was the last time a house burned down due to electrical issues? In the past, prior to standards this was rather common.

If you want a general understanding of what things were like prior to "regulation".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob-and-tube_wiring

Now ask how you would plug an appliance into this mess...

It will end up with the terrible quality fake usb cables and chargers we have today, thanks for the usb organisation not being stricter. Seems hard to find specific types of USB 3/C cables. In some cases they have damaged the connected devices which should be considered a failure of the U part.

If anything this will increase the value of official apple chargers because at least those will be well designed.

Even if you're buying from Amazon or AliExpress, there have been very few cases over the last few years of them damaging your device compared to the first years of USB-C.

They might still have other issues, but nothing that damages your device.

How can free sharing of ideas stifle innovation?

And Lightning is physically a better connector.

A better connector would be round.

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