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Comment by geoffeg | Hacker News Reader

Has the quality of Tesla vehicles, specifically the Model 3, improved since production began? There were lots of reports of poor quality, inconsistencies and very long repair times when they first came out. Elon himself even said to wait until production reaches a steady state: https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-best-time-to-buy-t...

I have a Chevy Volt right now, but I sometimes wonder what I'd buy if it were to be totaled in an accident since GM made the (poor, IMHO) decision to discontinue the Volt.

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My experience with quality as the owner of two Teslas, including a Model 3 purchased within the past year:

* Tesla fit and finish has improved but IMHO isn't yet quite on par with, say, MB and BMW -- e.g., panels and seals don't seem to be as perfectly aligned, and some gaps seem as if they're just a little wider than in those other two brands. However, I much prefer Tesla's interior -- modern, simple, uncluttered. Every other vehicle interior now feels cluttered and last-century to me.

* Tesla reliability has been amazing for me. No regular check-ups or oil changes required! And once the novelty wears off, the vehicles just keep working, and they don't seem to age as much. Our other Tesla is two years old now and its interior still feels brand new. It seems Tesla has chosen materials for the interior that feel "artificial" and "light" but somehow last and last and last without showing any wear and tear.

I have roughly the same experience with my Model 3. Fit and finish is acceptable, matching the entry-level luxury vehicles I have owned in the past (vehicles from Acura, BMW, Infiniti, etc.)

The quality of materials is debatable since, for example, Tesla exclusively uses synthetic material and no leather. But as you point out, the durability of these materials seems very good. Even with routine leather care, my previous vehicle with a leather interior showed more significant signs of wear at the same point in its life.

panels and seals are not as perfectly aligned, and some gaps seem as if they're just a little wider than in those other two brands.

I see this complaint a lot, but I've never understood how serious it is. Is it purely an aesthetic thing or does it actually effect the the longevity or road worthiness of the car in any way?

My Acura had some slightly misaligned panels and they never contributed any perceptible issue to the road worthiness of that car during my ~15 years of ownership. There were some interior rattles over time, but I've never had a car that didn't eventually develop some rattles.

I have not observed any panel misalignment on my Model 3.

My Model 3 is over four years old, still running great, zero maintenance. (I have a lift and rotate the tires myself, so actually zero maintenance money out of pocket cost other than replacing the tires.) Tesla replaced the backup camera for free - they came to me to perform the warranty repair.

My Model Y is two years old, no problems.

Combined mileage between the two vehicles is just shy of 150K.

The fit and finish of my older Model 3 has always just felt a bit better than the Y. I had to fix a weird creaking emanating from the rear hatch of the Y - a loose panel.

My Model 3 is the vehicle I have owned for the longest time and used continually. I haven't even had a desire to look for a new vehicle, which is way outside of my usual car purchasing behavior. (I have owned - and spent way, way too many hours myself on maintenance and repairing ICE vehicles.)

So you seem spend 1000-2000 hours a year driving cars around… thank god I have all this time doing other things

Or they just do long road trips once or twice a year

A long trip of 40000 miles? That‘s one long trip

I don‘t understand the downvotes. If you drive more than 10000 km a year with a car you are not only doing yourself a disfavor, you are also a huge liability for society.

The priority should be no travel > walking > biking > transit > car

Why make assumptions about the OP? Maybe he’s a doctor doing house calls or a surgeon driving to the hospital.

Opposite experience, here. I've never had aesthetic, chassis, or body panel issues, but the M3P has been endless problems:

  - I've gone through three 12v batteries in four years.
  - I've lost 40% of main battery pack capacity in four years (the first chunk of lost range was within a month of purchase).
  - The rear camera randomly loses signal while trying to back up.
  - Wifi Radios are incompatible with Ubiquiti Nano HD radios.
  - Software updates are a fun game of "ok, what won't work after this one?" or "Which critical UI functions did they move to a completely different place this time?"
  - Autopilot has tried to kill me several times: usually with random hard braking for no reason, but once with a completely incorrect and sudden lane divergence.
  - Most recently: the climate control system stopped working entirely a month ago. If I try to turn it on, the car has an electrical fault and I can't drive. So, I get to sweat profusely while waiting for a timeframe I can afford to be without the vehicle for the week+ it will be at the service center.

I think you will like the model 3 more than a volt or a bolt.

I am in a similar situation as you. I want to get rid of my model 3 but I am not sure what to replace it with…

No EV exists with the same performance in that price range.

I do not like my model 3. Tesla service is not trustworthy in my experience. My car was delivered with minor fit and finish issues.

I despise the lack of apple car play or android auto.

If this is legit (and I don't really doubt that it is other than it's so rare to hear someone complain about Tesla while simultaneously owning a Tesla), then I'd love to hear more about this.

You say the car has minor fit and finish issues, but that's clearly not what would motivate you to get rid of it. CarPlay / AA is fixable I imagine.

Is there anything else that's gone wrong with your experience?

I say this as someone who has eyeballed the Model 3 but never committed, and I'd be interested to hear about any negatives (as the internet hype mafia makes it difficult to see these stories).

Driving addiction could be a negative for some people. Seriously. The car is so fun it messes with your limbic system. For AWD and up models at least but I hear the RWD models are still fun. Myself I embrace the fun carefully while keeping the addiction in check, at least that’s what I tell myself.

I drove Kona EV for few months and I think EV's have just too much torque, especially at lower speeds. Extra torque from likes of Tesla at high speeds are great for overtaking, but going 0-60 in seconds is recipe for missing a corner. I don't expect this to be regulated, but it makes sense why most EV's cap on 8s 0-60.

Regen braking is wonderful in a Tesla though.

The torque is there if you press the pedal down more than 1/4 or so but you barely need to touch the pedal. It’s just pedal control. Use of the torque is entirely optional. Most people don’t go 0-60 in three seconds while cornering.

It is legit.

I don’t think CarPlay is coming. It is a product decision right? They want you using Tesla premium connectivity. CarPlay would let you bypass that.

Yes you are right the fit and finish on its own is not enough. However there shouldn’t be any fit and finish issues in my opinion. I paid the asking price so why am I getting a discounted fit and finish.

These are just a list of things that come to mind. It’s multiple straws that broke the camels back for me. Some of them are with the car itself and the others are with Tesla employees. All accumulating to me not trusting Tesla.

* 0-60 time increased after I placed my order and before the car was delivered

* sales team lied to me

* service advisors lied to me

* service management lied to me

* car doesn’t come with floor mats

* too many false positive “safety” alarms. Road side departure warning goes off a lot for me when I’m dead center in the lane. It’s really stressful for me and any passengers

* super chargers rarely charge at max speed

* supercharger musical chairs when the station is full

* phantom rattling noises from the cabin

* ui tweaks and “experiments” are annoying. Stop changing my interface

* playback of sentry mode videos is buggy

* non-standard charge port

* windshield wiper fluid sprays everywhere but the windshield

I could keep going. I’m just over the hype and don’t really want to deal with the company any more.

There are a lot of good things about it. I enjoy how the car drives and handles. The iOS app is great.

>They want you using Tesla premium connectivity. CarPlay would let you bypass that.

This is a stupendously, jaw-droppingly cynical take.

There is no way premium connectivity is making them any significant amount of money. It is so cheap! $100 / year last I checked. So Tesla is not basing any product decisions on that little pittance of money (remember, most of that money goes to the cellular companies that provide the networks, so the profit if any must be truly tiny).

And premium connectivity brings so much more than just music… video, web, traffic data, remote honk, remote light flash, remote viewing of live camera feed from the car's cameras on all sides, remote climate precooling / prewarming, remote control of other car functions, notifications about state changes, remote monitoring of charging status, notifications when charge is done, notifications of alarms… I mean the list is huge. You get all this with premium connectivity and none of it without.

You say the iOS app is great; connectivity with the car is one of the reasons it is great… I say all this just to make the point that just adding CarPlay would not make any meaningful number of people drop premium connectivity. What CarPlay offers is just a tiny little bit of all this.

So I'd look elsewhere for reasons why Tesla won't have CarPlay (and I agree they won't). Probably because they don't want to give up control of their UI to a massively controlling entity that wants to dictate so many aspects of what happens, and who also wants a cut of everything, including most likely things that are simply free with Tesla today.

There's quite a laundry list of other similarly oddly overwrought complaints that could be responded to above, but the only other one that really sticks for me is that sentry mode playback is indeed very flaky… but you know, that will be fixed in a software update.

Long story short, expecting CarPlay when Elon and Apple both want total control is a non-starter. CarPlay has too much baggage in the form of Apple control.

Good write up. Thank you for the response I agree with you.

Thanks for your reply too :-).

You would like to use both iPhone and Android at the same time? More importantly you would allow Google’s code to run in a car that you drive? I wouldn’t advise that.

If you have Volt and want a very reliable without troubles EV only substitute that is good value, take a look at Nissan Leaf. Yes there is talk it will be replaced in 2025, however it is the oldest and most dependable EV out there, current 2nd generation is exceeding the 1st in reliability, which was already the most reliable EV by far. It’s not sexy or has cool flat screens or futuristic controls. Instead it just works, well, and for low price. Some passengers don’t even realize they are in an EV until they notice it’s too quiet. I’m sure this comment will tick off lots of other fanboys who will come bashing it, but it’s nonsense.

Only if you want a battery that will die fast. Nissan made an insane decision early on to not heat or cool their batteries, and also not go with a battery chemistry that is resistant to degradation in the heat.

10 years in, all those early LEAFs have been scrapped or needed battery swaps due to like 75%!!! range loss in some cases! Meanwhile, Tesla, while notorious for fit/finish issues, has similar vintage cars that are still on their first battery with less than 20% loss of range.

Yes, the LEAF is "reliable." It reliably goes when you step on the accelerator, and everything else is reliable as well, except for the drivetrain, which reliably loses range to the point where the car is totaled because Nissan raised battery prices just as a tidal wave of vehicles needed them.

There's a reason Tesla is outselling every other EV in North America. Part of it is that they are able to source materials, but they are the only ones with a "good enough" mix of reliability and build quality on everything but the drivetrain, a bulletproof drivetrain, and a reliable and widespread charging network. Teslas aren't perfect, and there's room for a fast follower company to beat them, especially on fit, finish, convenience, and luxurious cabins, but that would require an Apple like attention to both detail and supply chains.

Totally false information.

Though a common misconception that comes from the Nissan Leaf being the first mass produced EV and the first to discover issues with battery degradation in hot or cold climates, this was an issue in 1st generation that is long gone, yet your out of date narrative has stuck in many minds.

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/09/21/surprise-nissan-leaf-ba...

Your 75% number is completely absurd and fabricated.

Teslas are a different price range than a Leaf and frankly not worth it my opinion.

Anecdotally, between friends and family, I know 5 people who have bought them and all love them. Tesla does rank near the bottom in "initial quality" but when you actually look at the numbers, it's not a dramatic difference. They have 25% more problems than the industry average, and are about equivalent to VW, which nobody seems to consider a low quality car. https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2022-us-init...

I have one of the first 5000 VINs released and it's been totally fine. Haven't had problems scheduling appointments with Tesla and getting work done. Cracked the roof with a bad bike rack once and they replaced it within a day.

Get a Model Y instead of a Model 3 if you can swing it and don't mind the crossover platform vs. sedan. The number of parts in a Model Y is even less than a 3 due to the gigacastings. Plus: hatchback! Who doesn't love a hatchback?

The Volt was an instant classic and you're very lucky to have one. IMO the best EVs right now are coming out of Korea but things are moving very fast and I'm expecting good things from the big 3.

Manufacturing has improved a bit, but these aren't designed to be high quality cars in the same way Toyota has worked quality into their culture. Also, improvement in initial issues has been unfortunately offset by reduction in service quality. It's impossible to get timely service appointments now.

Toyota may have reliable cars but they also have unreliable ones. Like their latest very disappointing and far from high quality EV that is also unreliable as the first batches were losing their wheels.

Disclaimer: I don’t like Toyota because of their disdain and lies about EVs.

They're a lot better than when the model 3 first came out.

There are still some fit and finish issues in body panels though, the standard is not up to any other manufacturer there.

In the price range for sure, but you can find a lot worse at lower prices. The Chinese and German Tesla are also fine in terms of body panel gaps.

Yes.

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