I wouldnt worry, the whole system up to this point has used "technobabble" as a means to confuse and impress outsiders. When reading up on it, there is no meaning to find besides "yep, its a linked list allright".
In my opinion too, the crypto crowd is typically one I like to avoid. But to dismiss the tech behind it as babble is sad.
And this is my opinion as someone who loves the value proposition of what cryptocurrency was supposed to be (see first line of Satoshi whitepaper), and care more about seeing the technology gain mindshare than hype cycles and price movement.
But those also aren't ponzi schemes offering 1000's of % APY based on convoluted multi-token staking schemes, minting, etc. that directly interact with money (as tokens) you send it, potentially breaking SEC rules because of what it means to be a money transmitter (low bar).
(Overall I'm talking about a bunch of tokens/dapps on Ethereum, not Ethereum itself, BTW.).
Anything of values get its share of fakes, even dev shops.
There's a lot of other stuff beyond Ethereum, too. Privacy coins in particular look very little like what was envisioned in Satoshi's paper.
Whether that's all worth anything from an economic perspective, I'm not sure (and even less sure whether it's worth what it's valued), but crypto is legitimately a bunch of very clever technological solutions to hard problems, invented by actual hackers, so I'm a little sad to see people minimizing it on Hacker News.
Especially since this particular innovation is ameliorating the whole global warming problem, which is the prime criticism leveled at crypto. Take that away, and isn't it just open source software that we're talking about here?
Crypto is one of the primary grounds for hacking right now. Not just hacking in the sense of writing code, but hacking in the sense of defining a system from scratch.
Cryptocurrency is so quintessentially hacker that hackers have a "no true scotsman!" moment about its ascent.
Similar feelings abounded with this thing called the Internet if you look in the archives.
Edit: Yes, it's raw. Yes, it's messy. The beginning of every new era of protocols is always like this. Look in the history of computer science and tell me that the Internet's origin was materially more orderly than the chaos that is web3. It's always a mess until it becomes boring, and then we do the dance again.
No it's not.
Web2 exploded largely because of XMLHTTPRequest which from the second it was released was simple to understand, simple to use and solved an immediate problem.
To this day I'm still yet to find a problem that Web3 solves uniqely well other than money laundering, sanctions evasion etc.
Many of cryptographical constructs of the past 4 years were and are spearheaded by blockchains, in particular fast signature aggregation, threshold signatures protocols and zero knowledge proofs. This translates to protocols for:
- voting.
- splitting a critical company secret between say the CEO, COO, CFO, Head of HR, Compliance, Legal and requiring 4 out of 6 to sign off critical actions, without ever revealing that secret.
- proving that you did or you own something without revealing what. Which could be quite interesting for law enforcement for example.
Not to mention the adoption possibly going on behind the scenes.
Adoption? More like, speculation. I still don't know anyone who's doing any real world transactions with crypto, but I know people who hold it for speculation purposes.
Adoption has mostly increased thanks to centralization, via exchanges, which seems antithetical to Bitcoin's foundation. What's the number one use case? Speculation and scams.
I'm not sure it's going in the right direction.
I recall some videos/articles dissing internet as a passing fad at that time - does anyone who remember what it was like then think the crypto industry going through something similar?
The utility of systems like email was very quickly apparent, and while the 90s web was much more about publishing structured information than any sort of interaction, again it was pretty immediately recognised as a powerful, useful thing.
I don’t recall any negativity to “the internet”, but a lot for the dot com hype cycle, which is what I think cryptocurrency most closely resembles, but it has dragged on for years
"The Internet, bah. Hype alert"
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlJku_CSyNg
"What is the Internet, Anyway?"
To be fair, so is Linux.
Good news is, those topics change and become more accepted after some time. It's an endless cycle of Bash-and-Move-on. If something is "too popular", then it's obviously the worse technology ever, according to HN.
What is the widespread problem crypto is solving ?
Hint: darkness and obscurity most of the time don't hide shy virtuous people.
They're as smart as they come.
The problem is fundamentally that cryptocurrency requires network effects to work. Cryptocurrency is not an easy thing to explain to most people, and it can be quite dangerous, so the best thing you can do for new users is tell them to stay away.
a single enterprising dealer could have started it off - exchange rate basically didn't matter, as long as someone was buying and selling BTC, it'd work to keep the dealer's identity private. SR tapped into a massive new market, regular people started learning about crypto so they could buy drugs, this created a flow of money through the market. honestly, I was excited to see my friends using Tor and buying BTC for cash - it's the gritty, cypherpunk dream!
whenever there's a real market opportunity like that, network effects don't seem to get in the way. Monero and Zcash got very popular from all the ransomware, though I'm admittedly less exuberant about hospitals being ransomed than drugs.
Here is some more history on early cryptocurrencies and blockchains:
The consensus and scaling mechanisms being rolled out were only just created in the last few years (that's why Ethereum PoS took so long, thery were still making changes to the design as new research came out).
B. This "merge" in particular utilizes innovations in computer science that were non-existent 12 years ago when the original Bitcoin whitepaper was published.
C. There continues to be loads of cutting edge CS research that is broadly applicable to the entire industry but is being spear-headed by blockchain development, for example work on Zero-Knowledge Proofs.
BLS was invented back in 2001, but was expensive to verify. A paper published in 2018 showed how to verify n aggregated signatures on the same message m with just 2 pairings instead of n+1.
https://ethresear.ch/t/pragmatic-signature-aggregation-with-...
I will gladly give a Turing award to whoever formally proves the safety and liveness of Gasper like Lamport did for Paxos.
However, I don't regularly dismiss fields like that, but rather I understand that not everything is meant for me to understand without a deeper meaning. Not sure why anyone would treat the (technical) ecosystem of cryptocurrencies differently. Seems like a non-curious way of acting.
Just like I realize the problems pornography introduces to the world, but reading and speaking with engineers working at those companies are still a fruitful endeavour for me.
Fully distributed consistency algorithms running on N nodes on linked list in which each node is a Turing-machine program run concurrently on N nodes, whose consistency shall also be insured, and which can write on said linked-list. Everything has absolutely tons of edge-cases related to the distributed nature of the thing to take care of.
Of course, I haven't even begun anything about the whole "crypto" part, and minimizing power usage.
Absolutely no meaning besides "linked lists", riiiight...
How would you
A) allow for secure payments without giving away something like a bank account # or debit card number
and
B) ensure that, even if those payments were secure, there was no other cheating, such as people at a bank just deciding to initiate an account with one million?
Generally speaking the way to handle those requirements is by employing cryptographic signatures and public blockchain(s), and the result is usually referred to as a cryptocurrency.
You can use PKI for this. The public key is public and the private key never has to be online. That's how (most?) crypto works, but the system doesn't have to be a cryptocurrency to work like this.
> B) ensure that, even if those payments were secure, there was no other cheating, such as people at a bank just deciding to initiate an account with one million?
You can have public ledgers without crypto, there's usually no reason to do so, and good reasons not to do it (privacy, funnily enough).
Crypto is _a_ solution for this, not _the_ solution, and not even the best solution at that.
I didn't actually say "cryptography" for the block chain. What do you propose other than a block chain for the public ledger? And if your system uses cryptography for the transaction security and has a public ledger, why would you not call it a cryptocurrency? It would seem to be in the same category if you ledger was secure.
A csv file, SQLite file, mysql database dump, ... The blockchain is a distributed, trustless ledger, which is not necessary for most applications.
If I may paint a picture of why this matters with an example from the gaming industry - simply because I'm familiar with it: There are projects being made where the inventory/achievement/whatever system lives on a public blockchain, so that you may use/display it in another game, website, whatever.
But this already exists without blockchain! If you play Spiral Knights or Half Life on Steam, you get a hat in Team Fortress 2. There are various third-party websites where you can display your Steam/Team Fortress/Dota/LoL achievements, inventories, ... because those 'ledgers' are public already. You can trade Steam items on third-party websites (which interfaces with steam underneath) that dodge Steam's 30% store tax and will actually pay money out unlike Steam.
The above applications only require public (or even just shared) ledgers. Distributed and trustless is not a requirement for these use cases.
> And if your system uses cryptography for the transaction security and has a public ledger, why would you not call it a cryptocurrency?
You could just as easily transfer USD, GBP or EUR using such a system. The currency itself need not be 'crypto' for the system itself to use cryptography for transactions. You wouldn't publish such a ledger for obvious reasons, but technically you can.
A centralized MySQL database is not a "public ledger" in the same way that a decentralized blockchain is considered a "public ledger."
In the former, the database can be removed or censored easily by the central entity controlling it. This includes issuing API keys: the central controller decides who has permission to access, use, modify, and even retrieve the data.
In the case of a "decentralized, permissionless, public ledger" blockchain, no single entity controls the data structure.
A public ledger is just that, a public ledger. It need not be distributed nor trustless to be public. The novelty of blockchain is the distributed and trustless, but most applications (as I outlined in the example above) only need to be public.
Trust me, I understand that a database dump is very different from a blockchain ala bitcoin, in exactly the ways you described, but that doesn't mean we need to shove blockchain everywhere.
But if you want to build a system that is not wholly dependent on "banks" and centralized actors securing consensus of financial transactions - which is effectively Proof of Authority - you end up having to look at alternative consensus mechanisms like Proof of Work or Proof of Stake.
The same logic applies to something like game assets. People buy and sell game assets already without a blockchain, but they do so only through centralized custodians and intermediaries.
That ledger is controlled/can be edited/changed by Vavle. Valve can delete your inventory and there is nothing you can do. Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a public ledger that no one can modify on a whim?
The second one is a dubious benefit if you're at all interested in stopping crime (eg money laundering is very easy if no party can block a transaction.)
Thats not to suggest there's no benefit to ETH, or even that crypto might be better than traditional money in some ways, but those two specific points are fairly easily argued.
We have a whole bunch of these systems, like Open Banking payments in the UK, Pix in Brazil, and to a lesser extent stuff like Apple/Amazon pay and other payment proxies which don't require you to expose account numbers to merchants. Physical credit-card transactions work this way too, as the chips have built-in cryptographic processors.
> such as people at a bank just deciding to initiate an account with one million?
This is not a problem people really have. Having a limited quantity of your means of exchange is not a desirable quality in a currency.
Cryptocurrencies don't necessarily have to operate on an (effectively) fixed supply, and actually if you are concerned about modifying the supply frequently it is possible to design a cryptocurrency that gives you much better control over that.
That's not really "at the bottom of things", for physical, customer-present transactions which I was talking about there. At the bottom of things are private keys stored on the card, which sign the transaction. Exposing the credit card number gets you no more than having someone's cryptocurrency wallet address, in fact a lot less as you can't look up their balance. The idea that credit card transactions are simply the handing over of a number, that a merchant can then do with whatever they like, is very outdated, though I guess still makes sense in countries that haven't moved on from magnetic strips.
Yes, plugging in your card number online to buy things is still distressingly popular for various reasons, I agree we should definitely get rid of it. And we can! Either by reforming the credit card payment process in the sort of way Apple Pay online payments and Paypal already have (though they still use the numbers themselves, it's true), or by ditching cards entirely and going with things like open banking payments and pix, which tend to have OAuth under the covers (among other measures) that don't involve 'card' infrastructure at all.
The question was how you design a system from the ground up that will "allow for secure payments without giving away something like a bank account # or debit card number". Well, I would use these sorts of technologies (that already exist and are in widespread use), rather than a blockchain.
Was I supposed to have a revelation that cryptocurrency is the answer, in some sort of holistic come-to-jesus moment? Sorry, no, cryptocurrency is still a crapfest.
Not sure how this opinion relates to failure, but just in case, things only got worse since.
Most of it is just companies putting blockchains everywhere because VCs give them money in that case. Nothing scientific about that.
I work in the crypto industry, and definitely agree there's a ton of innovation in the space, but the innovations lie at an incredibly technical intersection of cryptography, game theory, and distributed networks. Get marketing, sales, and investment capital involved in the mix (which almost every project has), and you have a bundle of products being thrust in front of the public which they can't rigorously evaluate, and because everything is directly incentivized, tons of scammers, grifters, liars, and fraudsters.
When my non-technical friends ask me about crypto, I'm happy to tell them some of the things I think are really cool about it. But I don't recommend buying anything based on my perspective; it's basically gambling (even if you're well-informed)
And it all went downhill from there.
So then the innovation of cryptocurrency was an economic one.
It does have the word "currency" in it, so that should not be surprising.
> It turns out that "distributed linked list" is actually a difficult problem that involves very interesting challenges
It's not that.
Are you saying it's easy? The PoS algorithms I've read seem quite complicated, and honestly quite interesting. Also there is a lot of academic research about this stuff, some of it private, some of it public.
I mean, I know there are people out there who think that, for example, particle physics is totally uninteresting, and you are of course free to decide that a given research area is totally uninteresting, but you can't expect others to agree. It is just your opinion
Even something like a Dex can be far superior to traditional order book exchange models in some cases
So you mean like me calling you and saying 0 1 0? Well, yeah kind of, but faster! And we can even have conference calls! It's going to change the entire world! Yeah, ok... Well, I'm going to leave now. Wait, sorry... I mean I'm going to '0 1 1 0' now. Wow, I can feel the world shifting already.
The applications of a technology often are far greater than the most simplified fundamental upon which it is built.