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Comment by srk_hn | Hacker News Reader

Linux has been around for 30 years and still has not acquired any significant consumer share.

Yet you've decided that the best solution for her is an OS that requires debugging miscellaneous hardware and driver issues and runs a mishmash of software with no consistent UI language.

As opposed to MacOS and Windows which just work, used throughout the world on a daily basis by the majority of the world, and have tangible results in terms of productivity benefit.

Honestly I think there are bigger underlying issues here, like listening to your partner and understanding their needs instead of forcing your opinion on someone who doesn't want it.

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> and runs a mishmash of software with no consistent UI language.

Do you mean like WinForms, WPF, WinUI, UWP, MAUI, Blazor, or good ol' MFC, none of which display text properly on hi-dpi displays in 2022?

We clearly don't live in the same 2022 then. Windows 11 has no high-dpi issues for me today on my 4ik monitor. And I even run 20 year old software and games on it. That has been a non-issue since later Windows 10 versions from like 2017.

And users/consumer don't care about GUI frameworks nonsense, that's a developer issue for them to deal with.

This post called out Linux for having an inconsistent UI:

> and runs a mishmash of software with no consistent UI language.

This reply pointed out that Windows also has an inconsistent UI:

> Do you mean like WinForms, WPF, WinUI, UWP, MAUI, Blazor, or good ol' MFC, none of which display text properly on hi-dpi displays in 2022?

This reply to that post states, "well users don't actually care":

> And users/consumer don't care about GUI frameworks nonsense, that's a developer issue for them to deal with.

It causes "a mishmash of sofware with no consistent UI language" on Windows. Try using Control Panel, Settings, or any of the other Windows Configuration things. At least on Windows 10 it was a nightmare of "which settings app from which generation of UI has that setting in it?".

>Try using Control Panel, Settings, or any of the other Windows Configuration things.

Average users don't know or care about any of that. That's a nitpicking issue for you because you know them all and are looking for flaws so you know where to look to go "A-ha, see, there's multiple ways to change settings!", but most users will not be bothered by any of that as they will always end up in the Settings panel in Windows 11 whenever you're trying to change something, and it has all the setting you need in a searchable categorized way, from screen resolution, to security, updates, internet connection, mouse acceleration to accessibility, since to find the old control panel you need to actually open it yourself manually, as it's never opened or suggested by any windows 11 setting itself, so again, this is a non-issue for average users just a nitpick from haters.

No need to break out the old control panel unless you're doing complex sys-admin things.

And what's wrong with having two ways in which to change the settings, a new and a legacy way? Even linux distros have that and it's considered a plus. That's like saying Linux is inconsistent because you can change a setting in the GUI and via the command line.

What are you talking about? The fact that there are two Settings panels ('Settings' and 'Control Panel') is already sub-optimal for UI/UX. Not to mention that half the windows on Control Panel are not resizable and the font does not scale with the rest of the system.

Average users do poke around the Control Panel, e.g. to install a printer. You clearly don't use Windows very much.

>What are you talking about? The fact that there are two Settings panels ('Settings' and 'Control Panel') is already sub-optimal for UI/UX

Why is that sub optimal? Nobody is forcing you to go looking for and dig up the old control panel especially that the average user has no idea the control panel even exists as it's hidden away since the Settings menu is always prevalent when searching for a setting and does everything. If the user can do everything using the default Settings app, what's the problem with the existence of the control panel hidden away in the bowels for sys-admins and legacy use cases?

You're grasping at straws here for an argument. That's like saying "my car has an UX issues because it lets me change the volume of the radio from two different places, the radio front panel knob and the buttons on my steering wheel, and those buttons look different than the knob".

>Average users do poke around the Control Panel, e.g. to install a printer.

It's 2022. If you need to poke around in control panel to install a printer you might be writing this from windows 95 or from a stuffy corporate environment in which case IT will do it for you. Windows 10 & 11 automatically installed my Canon and my Brother printers at home. It's 2022.

I am using PopOS as my daily driver. I have yet to see some of the problems with hardware or drivers ( so kudos to PopOS people ). Admittedly, it is not without flaws, but.. I don't turn on Windows VM that much anymore.

<<Honestly I think there are bigger underlying issues here, like listening to your partner and understanding their needs instead of forcing your opinion on someone who doesn't want it.

You have a point although obviously I am not willing to discuss those on open forum more than that. Hmm, lets reverse roles a little and see where it takes us in a hypothetical.

If I wanted to get a Acura, but wife was pushing for a Honda, is it forcing an opinion or discussing options with a partner?

That's a discussion because by and large those two choices are equal with minute differences in perceived social status and comfort, but the fundamental function is the same.

On the other hand if I'm spending 2 minutes debugging why my microphone isn't working or why my 2nd monitor blinks out when my computer goes to sleep, that is a waste of my time. If I can figure out any general Windows or MacOS software in 5 minutes but need to read a manpage or ask my partner how to do some trivial piece of work or why I can't edit a document my coworker sent but everyone else can, you are intentionally sabotaging my life with your decisions.

There's many things that are up for negotiation and consideration in a relationship, but wasting someone's time for the sake of some self righteous quest for privacy (that argument is moot btw, considering that you have now encouraged your partner to take risky actions such as finding new software and finding new ways of doing things without a "it just works" approach) crosses a line.

If you use a cellphone, have a WiFi router, don't use a VPN with no records at the router level, or are located within a city, you already don't have privacy no matter how much you personally believe you do.

Source: I work a lot with adtech and my partner works in a personal identification business

<<There's many things that are up for negotiation and consideration in a relationship, but wasting someone's time for the sake of some self righteous quest for privacy

Hmm. There was some judgment in that post. A lot of people value things on different scales. My self-righteous quest is valuable to me. It is only fair I would try to preserve some of it.

<<If you use a cellphone, have a WiFi router, don't use a VPN with no records at the router level, or are located within a city, you already don't have privacy no matter how much you personally believe you do.

Privacy is not a binary proposition that can be toggled, but rather, especially in current environment, an effort and a spectrum. If already did not have privacy, why would there be such a mounted effort to ensure that those intrusions are normalized.

I too am privacy conscious. I run adblockers, I use a VPN, I use a MacOS firewall and every connection has to be explicitly allowed.

I teach my partner how to do the same. That's about the extent I can do. If you want to go further such as pay for a temp phone or VPN using gift cards or get a 2nd internet connection to the house that's setup with a perfectly firewalled router, you can do so and that is your prerogative. But when your actions affect someone else's quality of life and you take away their decision to do so, that IMO is active sabotage.

I do not think I can accept sabotage characterization although I can see why that image would come to mind. It is a compromise of opinions at best. Still, I think you do have a point.

A car is a major purchase that can have a big long term impact on your shared life and expenses.

Her choice of OS probably is not.

A better hypothetical would be - she likes Hawaiian pizza, but you’re really intent on convincing her to eat supreme pizzas every time instead.

You have a point in that OS is not indeed a car. Analogies are flawed by their very nature ( they are like something are open to interpretation ). It is not, however, just a question of OS. It is just happens to be a sticking point to me. If we are talking expenses, it is a laptop, which, cost-wise, can vary somewhat.

Admittedly, mid-range stuff won't go past 2k if that.

I mean if your issue is the budget for the laptop that’s an entirely different and totally reasonable matter.

Are you sharing the Acura/Honda or is it _your_ car? Because if it’s your car then it is forcing an opinion. If it’s shared it’s different because you both will use it. (Not to mention the price difference here)

Laptop is hers, for her, to be used by her, therefor it’s her choice not yours.

Advise and suggest, but recognize in the end people are allowed to make the personal choice they want even if you don’t like it or agree.

Interesting. Could you define "_your_ car". Marriage, in US anyway, is effectively a business partnership with default split of 50/50. My car is her car and vice versa.

I think I already have a response I needed, but now I am just exploring other avenues of this conversation.

Some couples share a car, others each have their car. One situation is very different then the other, and sharing 1 car between a couple is not even comparable to someone’s laptop - which is theirs.

>Yet you've decided that the best solution for her is an OS that requires debugging miscellaneous hardware and driver issues and runs a mishmash of software with no consistent UI language.

I guess you've never tried Linux Mint with Cinnamon or anything similar. I've honestly had way more issues with Windows 10 than Mint. Before switching to it I had never even touched Linux, yet I found the transition to using it as my daily driver very easy. Everything I need to do for basic use can be done through UI, it's intuitive and quite similar to what I got used to with Windows 7. The only thing I miss is some Windows-software like MS Office.

It's all about which distro you choose. At work I use RHEL with Gnome and it's nowhere near as beginner-friendly as Mint with Cinnamon.

I've tried Fedora, Arch Linux, Ubuntu, CentOS, and Linux Mint. They all have issues you won't discover in the initial honeymoon stages but will randomly discover issues like sleep mode not working consistently, wifi disconnecting, second monitor not working, battery draining, etc.

If your hardware combination works with 0 issues, consider yourself lucky, but if you plan to upgrade your hardware you need to set aside hours of your time just in case you have issues.

If you're making any sort of serious $$ with your machine and Linux is not a hard requirement, good luck making that investment of time worth it.

I know that if I have an issue with Windows a quick Google search and I can find a solution within minutes. But I don't think I will ever return to debugging for hours why my 2nd monitor with an AMD card refused to work after my Ubuntu desktop went to sleep.

Yeah, I think that for new hardware there's more chance of compatibility issues. But when it comes to old hardware that's too slow for Windows, I think installing used SSD and something like Mint is always a good idea over buying a new machine just to run browser on Windows. Good for the planet and your wallet. Personally I use a Thinkpad from 2011 as my daily-driver outside of work, couldn't be happier but it probably wouldn't really work well with Win 10.

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