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Comment by _ph_ | Hacker News Reader

I would like to have seen a comparison to a state-of-the-art velomobile though. They have greatly reduced drag compared to a single cyclist too.

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Big Triangle (UCI) will never let that happen. They have a stake in keeping that technology supressed. Just like big oil and the electric car. :P

I can see why they guard the form of the bikes used.

Competitive team road cycling is, amongst other things, about the tactics of multiple riders using shared aerodynamic advantage.

If you make everyone more aero by say using recumbent bikes you diminish the advantage of teamwork.

You’d lose all the inter-team horse trading that goes on between rivals in breakaways or mountain stages. No more tight sprint train finishes.

There’d be no surprise attacks because there’d be no way to conserve energy hiding behind a rival waiting for the right moment.

Everything would be full gas all the time and could mostly be settled by looking at pure power numbers.

You’d still get a race but every stage would be a simple time trial. Effectively road racing would become a very different discipline.

Like giving all the riders ebikes. It’s still a form of racing but you lose a big part of what makes a team stage racing compelling.

I’ve always wondered though why they couldn’t allow open vehicle stages for some time trials where the riders are on their own anyway. I think that would preserve team cycling and still be fun.

Well, this is not about UCI regulations, it is about what is physically most efficient. But indeed, it is a pity that the UCI blocks any new bicycle designs.

Their goal is to keep race bicycles close to bicycles used by normal people. They don't want to end up with Formula 1 or Indycar cars vs the car we use to go to the mall. Both have 4 wheels but that's it.

However there are competitions for non UCI bicycles. The speed world records are among them.

Although F1 & IndyCar both ban performance-enhancing technologies that every single road-going car is required to have, specifically ABS & traction control. They are a weird mix of extremely cutting edge & expensive and also intentionally outdated & bad technology.

And before someone jumps in about how those technologies are actually somehow bad for the track or race car drivers don't benefit from them, F1 actually had to give up their 1994 ban because every team was doing it anyway and the FIA couldn't adequately police it until the ECU itself was made standard in 2008: https://racingnews365.com/traction-control-in-f1-a-short-his...

I understand and I agree on the somewhat archaic technologies. My point is that a Formula 1 car doesn't look like a car whilst a pro's bicycle looks like a very polished sport bicycle you can buy for 500 Euro or less. Every single component makes a world of difference though.

That is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Bikes used by normal people look a lot because of what the UCI is mandating. If e.g. recumbent bikes were an option in at least some competitions, they would be much more common place, the same applies for velomobiles.

Nevertheless, there are a lot of normal people driving recumbent bikes and velomobiles already. The road I live in is part of a bike route and I can see both driving here regularly (I also happen to own a recumbent bike :) )

I never saw many of them even on bike routes but we're probably from different parts of the world. Velomobiles, maybe I never daw one of them, only on YouTube.

As the owner of a recumbent, how does it handle on dirt and gravel? Are they bitumen only?

UCI rules only govern certain types of bicycle races. Triathlon bike rules are much looser and allow unconventional frame geometries. However, they still ban velomobiles, partly for safety and partly to keep equipment costs from spiraling out of reach.

Where can I learn more about this?

The UCI regulations for equipment are at https://www.uci.org/equipment/bh2JJzw1eB0n876rX2iB1

Indeed. Advanced Tall Sock Technology™ must not be developed or we could evolve as a species.

I would have guessed that a person in a sailboat was more energy efficient.

I doubt it. Pushing water out of the way is never very efficient. A sailboat appears to be efficient because it is harvesting wind power and not counting that.

You would be surprised. I was always astounded by how easy it was to push my friends’ sailboat by hand. With them and their gear on board that boat was around three metric tons.

Power to overcome drag increases at a cube. If you were pushing it a half knot, 10 knots would require 8,000 times the power.

There's no breakout friction with a boat. This means you can move enormous weight with just steady pressure. It doesn't really have anything to do with efficiency.

It depends on the task. What’s the most energy efficient way of getting 20 tons of material from Chicago to L.A.? Is it a peloton with panniers?

A bicycle is also harvesting the construction of the road and not counting that. Sail might still be less efficient in the amortized average, though.

A bicycle does not harvest energy from the road.

I think they are saying the bicycle needs a hard, smooth road and that takes a lot of energy to produce.

If a special single-use road was required, then maybe they would have a point.

Reminds me of Alan Watts - the way is to go with the flow. Instead of building a motor, hoist a sail. Instead of sending a rocket, build a telescope. Etc.

Does require you to limit your goals: what if you want to see the far side of the moon? (Substitute goal: listen to "Dark Side of the Moon")

A milan can cruise at 60km/h with some average fit guy.

Top tier cyclists in a pack do about 50km/h on the flatter stages on an upright with around 2x the power.

That is very cool, but for a slightly off-topic consideration: I don't think I would want to travel at 60 km/h on a public road with nothing but an ultralight shell protecting me.

(Yes, I know bikers go much faster with even less protection - I'm not a fan of motorbikes either.)

Just because you can doesn't mean you have to. You can do 25-30 and put in 40W + whatever gravitational energy you need to gain (which will slow you down a lot on the hills).

But really, anything as efficient as an upright or more is fine.

What is a milan?

One of the more efficient velomobiles that can be practical as a daily driver (ie. comfortable, has suspension, still efficient when open top so you don't broil in summer, you don't need someone to catch it when you stop).

A highly efficient velomobile.

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